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irc log for FDSCo meeting 28-Nov-2006

I did some clean-up of joins/leaves, otherwise pristine as usual.

17:08 < quaid> <meeting>
17:09 < quaid> glezos: test wiki, I didn't get clear from paulobanon if
he wanted us to abuse it yet, esp. since we have read-only I guess
17:10 < glezos> quaid, just asking to see the official logo stickster
17:10 < stickster> So, notice to all who have URL, keep it to yourselves
17:10  * stickster let cat out of bag
17:13 < BobJensen> Hi Guys
17:13 < BobJensen> Sorry I'm late
17:13 < quaid> no worries
17:13 < quaid> I had to start the feast
17:14 < BobJensen> K
17:14 < stickster> OK then
17:15 < stickster> Who is owning the release notes?  And will there in
fact be an update?
17:15 < BobJensen> I will not be here next week as per my scheduled
17:15 < stickster> Is there anything *to* update?  New translations?
17:15 < quaid> and
17:15 < quaid> I haven't dug through i18n to see if there are finished
17:16 < quaid> but several major languages are incomplete
17:16 < quaid> and I think that sucks
17:16 < quaid> (in a generic suckage way)
17:16 < stickster> +1
17:16 < BobJensen> stickster: I was just looking at that over the
holiday weekend, I think we should target an update for a couple weeks
away, there are some bug items and other things I think we could add and
17:17 < BobJensen> the i586/i686 bug is one
17:17 < |DrJef|> hey i have a question, where would i start looking for
current state of localization for Alaskan native languages?
Specifically    Yup'ik and Inupiaq
17:17 < stickster> That bug's growing whiskers
17:18 < stickster> Now that we've had almost 500K downloads or whatever
17:18 < glezos> |DrJef|, http://i18n.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status
17:18 < quaid> |DrJef|: http://i18n.redhat.com 
17:18 < quaid> yeah, there
17:18 < BobJensen> stickster: it is relevent for those that install from
the released ISOs
17:18 < stickster> Yeah, very much so
17:18 < stickster> So yes, a couple of weeks then
17:19 < stickster> Can we set a target date of 12/12?
17:19 < |DrJef|> mucho gracias
17:19 < BobJensen> On that same bug I am going to b doing some testing
for nasrat this week to see if the bug is fixes
17:19 < BobJensen> fixed
17:19 < stickster> Yeah, I was under the impression there was an
anaconda update that addressed it
17:19  * quaid looks at calendar
17:20 < quaid> we can do 12/12 if we can make it clear that we are open
for more translations and be sure we can get PO back out
17:20 < quaid> stickster: you have those perms now?
17:20 < |DrJef|> i see Inupiaq listed by not  Yup'ik
17:20 < stickster> Uhm... I think so
17:20 < quaid> ok, let's proceed then
17:21 < quaid> I'll send email right now to f-trans-l saying we are
going to do a package update for updated/completed translations
17:21 < quaid> 12/10 due date for getting it all done
17:21 < |DrJef|> quaid, not to get in the way of what you are working
on... but what do you think the chances are of getting Google SoC
project to start a translation for Inupiaq?
17:21 < stickster> quaid: Maybe hold off until the beat update is done
17:21 < BobJensen> can we target the 11th going to trans and publish on
the 19th?
17:21 < stickster> quaid: Isn't there material to add on the wiki and
then convert?
17:22 < quaid> |DrJef|: probably need an Inupiaq translator person(s) to
propose it
17:22 < |DrJef|> quaid, i could probably line up someone at the
University who would be willing to do the work
17:22 < stickster> I think we want to try for 10 days to trans
17:22 < |DrJef|> quaid, there are students who study native languages as
degree minors
17:22 < quaid> |DrJef|: I'm working with some others on proposing a
Summer of Content, with content focused on supporting FLOSS project
17:22 < BobJensen> stickster: true
17:22 < stickster> I think that was our goal last time though this
17:22 < quaid> |DrJef|: sounds like a good fit
17:23 < |DrJef|> quaid, if i found a student looking for summer work to
start such a translation project, could Fedora be the mentoring entity?
17:23 < quaid> our goal was on updating content, then getting all trans
up to date?
17:23 < quaid> |DrJef|: interesting idea, as we are a conduit to all the
upstreams for translation, right?
17:23 < BobJensen> stickster: How about to trans on the 12th and publish
the 22nd or the weekend?
17:23 < |DrJef|> quaid, i might also see if OLPC could be a mentoring
entity, since im specifically interested in laying the groundwork for
OLPC deployment in AK
17:23 < quaid> or do translators go directly through e.g. GNOME?
17:23 < |DrJef|> quaid, i dont know whats best
17:23 < stickster> BobJensen: I think pushing that close to the holidays
is a Really Bad Idea
17:24 < BobJensen> Oh shoot you are right
17:24 < stickster> BobJensen: Does your schedule preclude getting the
beats updated by, say, this weekend?
17:24 < |DrJef|> quaid, i'm just trying to act as a facilitator in my
17:24 < BobJensen> stickster: sadly yes
17:24 < BobJensen> stickster: I can do Friday the 8th
17:24 < quaid> |DrJef|: word ...
17:25 < stickster> OK, I think that may work out better
17:25 < |DrJef|> quaid, SoC is pretty low hanging fruit for funding
17:25 < quaid> glezos: does GNOME trans come down from GNOME?  do we
have a way to push trans of GNOME from Fedora into GNOME?
17:25 < BobJensen> that will give trans a full work week and two
17:25 < stickster> I can get the stuff out to trans on the 9th, and then
we ask for return by the 19th, I'll publish ASAP
17:25 < quaid> |DrJef|: I do think translations fit in the new Summer of
Content idea, but I don't know where that is going to go
17:25 < stickster> s/on the 9th/by the 9th/
17:25 < quaid> ok, more time for trans is key
17:26 < stickster> 10 days now
17:26 < BobJensen> stickster: I would love to be part of the publish
process if we can make it happen
17:26 < quaid> we're coming from no where, so almost 2x the normal would
be good
17:26 < glezos> quaid, I didn't understand the Q, sorry.
17:26 < stickster> BobJensen: Oops, you will be... I won't be available
the 19th
17:26 < glezos> quaid, translation of GNOME is done from its own CVS,
it's own team.
17:26 < quaid> glezos: Fedora is a downstream user of translations that
come from e.g. GNOME, KDE, etc. right?
17:26  * stickster checks his schedule again
17:26 < glezos> quaid, yes, AFAIK
17:26 < |DrJef|> quaid, there are like dozen of languages up here,
Yu'pik isnt even listed in the translation list of possible
17:27 < quaid> glezos: do you know if we have a way to push translations
back upstream from within Fedora?  Or do translators who want to trans
e.g. GNOME go to gnome.org?
17:27 < stickster> quaid: latter is the way
17:27 < glezos> quaid, the second.
17:27 < BobJensen> stickster: if we can work it out so i can work with
you to be a part of the publish process when ever we have to do it
before christmas I am fine with
17:27 < stickster> glezos: jinx :-)
17:27 < quaid> |DrJef|: that seems like the  major barrier is that a lot
of the trans is upstream
17:28 < stickster> BobJensen: The key is that you need access to write
to the web module
17:28 < BobJensen> stickster: IIRC I have that
17:28 < stickster> BobJensen: bitchin
17:28 < stickster> Then you will find it very simple
17:28 < glezos> quaid, Ubuntu tries to do some downstream translations
through Rosetta.. but it's very very bad and translators hate it
17:28 < quaid> |DrJef|: we could certainly mentor for Fedora needs;
there was also a multi-mentor proposal to make it easier to
cross-connect students into multiple projects.
17:28 < BobJensen> stickster: unless things have changed
17:28 < stickster> BobJensen: At worst you may have to write a few lines
of HTML to update "index" pages with manually-created tables
17:29 < stickster> the rest of it is a very easy process
17:29 < BobJensen> stickster: I know I pushed to the web for FC5's
release and did *something* wrong but I did have the needed access
17:29 < quaid> also package update
17:29 < |DrJef|> quaid, obviously gnome is the next logical step....
just getting a translation for one of the bigger languages up here
started that impacts OLPC would be good enough i would think
17:29 < stickster> quaid: Yup
17:29 < BobJensen> stickster: our "fedora-release-notes" package should
also be updated
17:30 < stickster> That's easy, I'll let f13 know once the translations
are back in
17:30 < BobJensen> OK
17:30 < quaid> |DrJef|: right, if OLPC translation is the point, they
might be a better mentor, as they are connected to all their own key
17:30 < stickster> quaid + BobJensen jinx
17:30 < BobJensen> stickster: yup
17:30 < quaid> where I wouldn' tknow what to do for e.g. AbiWord :)
17:30 < glezos> stickster, any progress on separating
fedora-release-notes and fedora-browser-splash po files?
17:30  * stickster reminds quaid and BobJensen about the tagging thing
17:31 < quaid> we need to branch?
17:31 < stickster> XML has to be retagged to match original release to
prevent translator pain
17:31 < quaid> um
17:31 < stickster> Thanks wiki!
17:31 < quaid> can we just add the changes in by hand?
17:31 < |DrJef|> quaid, indeed, if I'm clever enough I can sucker native
language translators into localization workshop sessions hosted by the
University LUG
17:31 < quaid> v. regenerating the XML?
17:31 < stickster> Absosmurfly
17:31 < quaid> ok, let's do that
17:31 < glezos> |DrJef|, are you sure this is the best time to talk
about this? :)
17:31 < quaid> tasks then are:
17:31 < stickster> In fact, I think we tagged pages in the wiki for
release, so it should be easy to diff the changes right there
17:31 < |DrJef|> glezos, no its not....
17:32 < quaid> BobJensen: can you find all the content that has changed
in the Wiki so we can fix it in the XML?
17:32 < |DrJef|> glezos, ill get out of your way now
17:32 < quaid> plus any new stuff we need to add
17:32 < BobJensen> quaid: I think so
17:32 < quaid> BobJensen: then I can help convert that into XML
manually, to minimize the XML diff for translators
17:33 < quaid> and we hand that off to stickster for packaging
17:33 < quaid> and BobJensen and I can work out the Web publish on f.r.c
17:33 < quaid> ok?
17:33 < BobJensen> quaid: sure
17:34 < stickster> +1
17:34 < glezos> |DrJef|, chill. Just suggesting (with a smile) to talk
about it in a few minutes..
17:35 < glezos> quaid, if I can help with the publish, let me know
17:35 < stickster> Just until </end-mtg>
17:37 < stickster> And everything goes silent... :-D
17:37 < glezos> stickster, did you miss my Q about the separation of po
files or was that on purpose? :D
17:38 < BobJensen> OK between now and the 6th I will work on the Wiki
content, work with quaid to get the xml to stickster by the 8th for him
to send to trans, back from trans the 18th and we wrap it up
17:38 < stickster> ?
17:38 < |DrJef|> glezos, don't worry, i'm not miffed its obvious your
getting work done
17:38 < stickster> Oh
17:38 < stickster> sorry!
17:38 < stickster> glezos: The answer is no
17:38 < BobJensen> is that timeline roughly correct?
17:38 < stickster> But I will discuss it with f13 and find out if he
minds terribly just using an extra Source in the spec... then we can
simply break it out
17:39 < glezos> We need to put that somewhere on the schedule.. The
translators really need it. Basically, separate the release-notes from
everything else (browser splash, about-fedora, etc) would be a good
17:40 < quaid> should we do that for this or the next package update?
17:41 < stickster> I don't see how it's such a huge help, since there's
only a few dozen strings implicated in the extra two pieces
17:41 < BobJensen> quaid: Do we want to do it mid FC release or target
that for the next Fedora release?
17:41 < glezos> quaid, if it's not very difficult, I would suggest to do
it asap..
17:41 < stickster> The vast majority come from the relnotes themselves
17:42 < stickster> glezos: It requires a change in the spec for the RPM,
and it's going to be f13's call whether that's too major a change for
17:42 < glezos> stickster, there were some translators who wanted to
translate the about-fedora and splash page but didn't have the resources
to translate the relnotes
17:42 < stickster> Ah
17:42 < stickster> Yes, hadn't thought about it the other way 'round
17:42 < BobJensen> Changing our package mid release might get more
resistance than doing it for a new release
17:43 < stickster> It really won't be a new package, just the same one
now composed from three different sources
17:43 < BobJensen> true
17:43 < glezos> BobJensen, yes but that's why we are doing updates
right? To fix things that didn't manage to get on the release..
17:43 < quaid> if we can't, we can at least let people translate those
and tell us, then we can take in the PO for host languages for the
about-fedora etc.
17:44 < stickster> s/three/multiple/
17:44 < BobJensen> stickster: I will be talking to Jesse about pungi
this week, I will put a bug in his ear about the sources change if he
does not speak up tonight
17:44 < stickster> He's pretty good about keeping up with his buffer,
I'd think I'll get a shout back by tomorrow... but fer shur
17:45 < glezos> great
17:45 < BobJensen> yup yup
17:45 < stickster> I think this brings up a good point, mildly related
17:45 < glezos> BTW, we could still do it without changing the SPEC
right? By doing a po merge before the packaging?
17:45 < stickster> We need to do a better job of training our new
17:46 < quaid> who, us?
17:46 < stickster> Not that present company isn't awesome... we just
need *more* awesomeness
17:46 < stickster> quaid: yup
17:46 < stickster> We still have no firm date on Plone stuff
17:46 < quaid> NewWriters is overly long, etc., but how can we do
17:46 < stickster> So let's stop dragging feet on helping new guys learn
DocBook XML + CVS
17:47 < quaid> how do you mean dragging?
17:47 < stickster> Oh, nothing in particular
17:47 < quaid> really it is more a matter of dragging people into it,
and can we?
17:47 < quaid> ppl seem to really respond to the wiki
17:47  * stickster is just being tactless after a number of stupid
meetings with "no-speak" bosses today
17:47 < quaid> and flinch at XML
17:48 < stickster> That's just because they see wikis everywhere and no
one helps people learn XML
17:48 < stickster> I lucked out, I got in right before the wiki hit, so
I had people helping me
17:48 < quaid> proposals/
17:48 < quaid> ?
17:48 < stickster> Otherwise I'd think exactly the same thing
17:48 < quaid> I mean, when we had only the XML as a way to write, we
had little help
17:49 < quaid> does this just mean, update doc-guide?
17:49 < BobJensen> IMO we all should have at least a clue about XML and
CVS to prevent all of the work being on the shoulders of a few
17:49 < stickster> BobJensen: +1
17:49 < stickster> Otherwise we're a choke point
17:49 < BobJensen> sadly I am in that lacking clue group
17:49 < stickster> Did the gobby session we had before help at all?
17:49 < stickster> Would that work as a continuing series?
17:50 < BobJensen> stickster: I missed that actually
17:50 < stickster> It's in the archive, I sent a log to the list
17:50 < stickster> complete with examples from the editor session
17:50 < stickster> I think a lot of people get into Linux to learn
17:50 < stickster> We just have to enable the learning
17:50 < stickster> Without downing the wiki
17:50 < BobJensen> Yes I have that item, seeing t live woudl have been
better, I think doing it again or even regualrly might be a bonus
17:50 < quaid> okey
17:51 < quaid> I approve, let's just do some stuff
17:51 < stickster> Yeah
17:51 < quaid> fixing the doc-guide would help a lot
17:51 < stickster> quaid: +5
17:51  * stickster is working on that after this meeting
17:52 < quaid> ok, I put it back on the active schedule
17:52 < quaid> I can pledge time for that, for sure
17:53  * stickster is resolved at next FUDCon to do a hands-on Docs
session just about how to mechanically work our tools
17:53 < glezos> best way to recruit people, IMO, is to just give them
jobs to do and a mentor to overlook, give a schedule of "deliverables"
and poke them.
17:53 < |DrJef|> so when is FUDCon going to be help in Anchorage?
17:54  * stickster will hold special class for Jef  :-D  jk
17:54 < stickster> When is FUDCon going to be held anywhere, for that
17:54 < stickster> hmm....
17:55 < BobJensen> stickster: there was talk about Q107
17:56 < quaid> hmm
17:57 < stickster> heh, "Q107" was a hit radio station growing up here
in DC
17:57 < BobJensen> LOL
17:57 < stickster> But OK... Maybe Boston again then?
17:58 < BobJensen> stickster: that was one place mentioned
17:58 < stickster> Maybe I'll wrangle a room at the RH Summit for this
17:58 < stickster> I know people in high places nowadays
17:58 < stickster> Matthew owes me for my big suck-up article, dontcha
17:58  * stickster looks around nervously at light bulbs
17:58 < stickster> heh heh, just kidding Matthew!  he.... *ahurm*
17:59 < BobJensen> stickster: I am told that when the FUDCon happens I
will be there
17:59 < stickster> OK, coming up on 60-min. mark... how are we doing?
18:00 < quaid> yep
18:00 < quaid> I'm ready for a light session now
18:00 < BobJensen> I wil have an update on the release notes for you
guys for next week's meeting
18:00 < quaid> meeting still open for general discussions, another hour
at the end
18:00 < quaid> just to see if anyone (megacoder0 drops by)
18:01 < BobJensen> One of my servers went MIA while we were chatting so
i need to look at that
18:01 < BobJensen> BRB
18:03  * stickster goes off to work on doc-guide
18:03 < stickster> Durn, need to change discs too
18:04 < quaid> ok, we're on interim period here :)
18:04 < glezos> already 2am! darn. gnite.
18:14  * quaid takes a break to do some kitchen clean-up
18:51  * stickster idly wonders after calling up yelp for testing the
DG, whether the DUG needs to be renamed so as not to conflict with the
existing "Desktop User Guide" (provided by GNOME)
18:55 < quaid> hmm
18:56 < quaid> FUG?
19:05 < stickster> Heh
19:05 < stickster> Then it can be fugly
19:13  * quaid does some more movement on the Moin DocBook stuff
19:15 < cdehaan> I've been such a bad contributor lately... is the
current setup of editing in MoinMoin and later converting to DocBook
still the model for the immediate future?
19:18  * quaid gets out the whip for cdehaan 
19:18 < cdehaan> What can I say? Busy semester :)
19:18 < quaid> :D
19:18 < cdehaan> I did get FC6 running quite nicely on my MacBook,
though, which is wonderful
19:18 < quaid> cdehaan: check this out for the current and future
19:18 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas
19:19 < quaid> the three-pronged approach section explains things best
19:19 < quaid> mainly, yes
19:19 < quaid> Wiki and XML are the tools
19:19 < quaid> but learning XML is worth doing now :)
19:20 < cdehaan> Good good
19:20 < cdehaan> Is there no good XML-Wiki style interface... such as
that all the editing would actually be done in XML, and all files would
be in XML, but they could be viewed as they are currently?
19:21 < cdehaan> Obviously MoinMoin wouldn't be the frontend to be doing
this, but something similar?
19:22 < cdehaan> My opinion counts for very little, but that seems like
the best idea...
19:31 < stickster> cdehaan: That is the "coming one day" version, yes
19:31 < stickster> cdehaan: I was just saying in our meeting that
waiting for that to come about doesn't seem to be doing any good
19:32 < stickster> The more people we can get to learn the "real" tools,
the more help there will be
19:32 < quaid> +1
19:32 < cdehaan> There's no interface, as of yet, to accomplish that
19:32 < quaid> we are just always working to increase the # of editors
19:32 < quaid> the thing is
19:32 < stickster> Wiki editing is very important and a good thing, but
if people are willing and able to learn a new skill, that's better
19:32 < quaid> yes, better than waiting :)
19:32 < stickster> Especially since we have time and willingness to
19:33 < quaid> cdehaan: there is no interace yet that can do that in a
satisfactory way
19:33 < cdehaan> stickster: To me, DocBook makes more sense... I haven't
truly learned it, but writing in terms of chapters, sections, etc. is
clearer than abstract headings and icons that you do with MoinMoin
19:33 < quaid> but we can't wait for it to be done, and stickster is
right about Just Learning It
19:33 < quaid> it's easy :)
19:33 < stickster> cdehaan: +1
19:34 < cdehaan> And, because I'm anal about these things, the idea of
having the stuff in two "places" and in two formats bugs me.
19:35 < cdehaan> So we just need to recruit people with the skills to
work on the unsatisfactory solutions to our issue, and make them
satisfactory... or start from scratch.
19:36 < stickster> Starting from scratch -1
19:36 < stickster> But +1 on recruiting people who can help craft the
new better solution
19:37 < stickster> It all revolves around people with Python+Zope+Plone
19:37 < stickster> In the meantime, by working in DocBook we know we can
get to any other target
19:38  * stickster goes back to DocBook on DocGuide
19:39 < quaid> cdehaan: one way to get more comfie with the current
situation is to think of it this way
19:39 < quaid> some docs have their source in the Wiki (Docs/Beats) and
some in CVS/XML
19:39 < quaid> rather that one doc in two places
19:40 < quaid> the goal is to converge, all XML in SCM with multiple
editors (Wiki, Emacs, OO.org, etc.0
19:40 < quaid> ok, I'm going to close this meeting up
19:40 < EvilBob> +1
19:40 < quaid> :D
19:40 < quaid> </meeting>

Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor    ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
   quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

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