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Meeting Log - 2007-09-27



2007-09-27T13:54:22 *** mmcgrath changes topic to "Infrastructure -- Role Call"
2007-09-27T13:54:37  * mmcgrath notes jeremy and warren are about to drop
2007-09-27T13:54:50  <warren> drop?
2007-09-27T13:55:07  <lmacken> heheh
2007-09-27T13:55:09  * couf listens in
2007-09-27T13:55:25  * jeremy is here
2007-09-27T13:55:27  <warren> oh you're doing it on asterisk?
2007-09-27T13:55:30 <mmcgrath> abadger1999: dgilmore: f13 jeremy lmacken mbonnet paulobanon jima: ping
2007-09-27T13:55:32  <warren> I odn't have my headset today =(
2007-09-27T13:55:43  <abadger1999> pong
2007-09-27T13:55:46  <jima> oops
2007-09-27T13:55:49  <jima> hey folks :)
2007-09-27T13:55:53 <mmcgrath> warren: nope, its just that every meeting you and jeremy seem to drop within seconds of me changing the topic. Its happened for the last 4 or 5 meetings.
2007-09-27T13:55:53  <f13> mmcgrath: I'm not really here, leaving shortly
2007-09-27T13:56:00  <mmcgrath> f13: k.
2007-09-27T13:56:13  <mmcgrath> skvidal: ping
2007-09-27T13:56:15 <warren> mmcgrath, I wonder if something in IRC causes the proxy to crash
2007-09-27T13:56:17  * lmacken is here
2007-09-27T13:56:30  * skvidal is here
2007-09-27T13:56:38  <skvidal> when do jeremy and warren drop off?
2007-09-27T13:56:50 <mmcgrath> skvidal: almost every meeting right after we start. 2007-09-27T13:56:52 <lmacken> i think this was the first week it hasn't happened ;)
2007-09-27T13:57:01  <warren> mmcgrath, how many weeks in a row?
2007-09-27T13:57:02  <mmcgrath> its very amusing.
2007-09-27T13:57:10  <skvidal> at least a couple of months
2007-09-27T13:57:13  <warren> wow
2007-09-27T13:57:14  <mmcgrath> warren: many, I'm not sure the exact number.
2007-09-27T13:57:29  <skvidal> it became a running gag
2007-09-27T13:57:30 <mmcgrath> we always laugh at it but you two probably don't see it because you're off :) 2007-09-27T13:57:34 <warren> mmcgrath, perhaps our network has a hiccup every week at the same time
2007-09-27T13:57:44  <skvidal> warren: it's a bit uncanny, though.
2007-09-27T13:57:49 <mmcgrath> maybe a clear xlate or something. alrighty, lets get going. 2007-09-27T13:57:51 <jeremy> I got a core file out of dircproxy, but it was basically garbage
2007-09-27T13:57:56  <warren> ah!
2007-09-27T13:58:01  <warren> jeremy, I use dircproxy to
2007-09-27T13:58:02  <warren> too
2007-09-27T13:58:11  <lmacken> our meetings have found an exploit!
2007-09-27T13:58:14  * dgilmore is here
2007-09-27T13:58:19 *** mmcgrath changes topic to "Infrastructure -- Tickets" 2007-09-27T13:58:34 <mmcgrath> .tiny https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/fedora-infrastructure/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&group=milestone&keywords=%7EMeeting&order=priority
2007-09-27T13:58:40  <mmcgrathbot> mmcgrath: http://tinyurl.com/yth34b
2007-09-27T13:59:03  <dgilmore> mmcgrathbot: they just dont like you ;)
2007-09-27T13:59:06 <mmcgrath> .title https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/154 2007-09-27T13:59:08 <mmcgrathbot> mmcgrath: #154 (DNS) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac
2007-09-27T13:59:10  <mmcgrath> could be :)
2007-09-27T13:59:42 <mmcgrath> So the first ticket about DNS stuff is on going. I've got the ttl for fedoraproject.org set to 60 seconds right now. It seems fairly responsive. I've been able to direct traffic to the tummy site or PHX site pretty much at will. 2007-09-27T14:00:13 <mmcgrath> We've been balancing between the two for the last week or so without issue. 2007-09-27T14:00:28 <mmcgrath> The last two pieces of that are to get the rest of the hosts on the VPN and setup our secondary VPN site.
2007-09-27T14:00:29  <jima> cool
2007-09-27T14:01:01 <mmcgrath> basically we're going to have two vpn servers one in PHX one, as a backup, elsewhere. If one fails, the others will automatically connect to the other one within 20 seconds. 2007-09-27T14:01:24 <mmcgrath> I'm going to see what problems that will cause, like will TCP be interupted/ etc.
2007-09-27T14:01:31  <jima> any idea where "elsewhere" will be?
2007-09-27T14:01:31 <mmcgrath> any questions comments on that before we move on? 2007-09-27T14:02:01 <mmcgrath> jima: initially it will be at the denver colo with tummy.com though I'll be moving it somewhere else if we get some space for it. 2007-09-27T14:02:10 * mmcgrath notes - http://mmcgrath.fedorapeople.org/GlobalNetwork.png
2007-09-27T14:02:22  <mmcgrath> Ok, next ticket.
2007-09-27T14:02:30  *** ricky has joined #fedora-meeting
2007-09-27T14:02:35  * ricky is here now.
2007-09-27T14:02:38 <mmcgrath> .title https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/170 2007-09-27T14:02:40 <mmcgrathbot> mmcgrath: #170 (Hosting respins) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac
2007-09-27T14:02:48  <mmcgrath> ricky: yo
2007-09-27T14:03:20 <mmcgrath> So I think there's been some miscommunication or me just not paying attention to whats going on with the respins. We've been talking about it a bit on f-a-b. 2007-09-27T14:03:20 <dgilmore> mmcgrath: do we have space for hosting random spins? 2007-09-27T14:03:24 <jima> mmcgrath: careful, that map is a tad bit depressing. ;) 2007-09-27T14:03:28 <lmacken> has anyone looked at wevisor, and what it offers ?
2007-09-27T14:03:28  *** JSchmitt has quit IRC
2007-09-27T14:04:11 <mmcgrath> dgilmore: we have spce for hosting *some* space now - 242G 123G 107G 54% /srv 2007-09-27T14:04:13 <abadger1999> lmacken: wevisor needs some work. The RH interns left and it's been stalled. 2007-09-27T14:04:23 <mmcgrath> I'm working to aquire much more space in the 1T range.
2007-09-27T14:04:24  <abadger1999> lmacken: Otherwise, its mostly done.
2007-09-27T14:04:42  <VileGent> fyi fedora unity has respins to go now
2007-09-27T14:04:44  *** LetoTo has left #fedora-meeting
2007-09-27T14:04:48 <mmcgrath> jeremy: is this a releng thing only or is this something infrastructure could or should be helping out with?
2007-09-27T14:05:07  <dgilmore> mmcgrath: can that grow?
2007-09-27T14:05:11 <mmcgrath> I get emails from time to time about it and the whole process is a bit murky in my mind. 2007-09-27T14:05:17 <abadger1999> lmacken: It's current goal, though is just to get you a kickstart file. You still have to pass the kickstart through pungi and other tools to get a spin out.
2007-09-27T14:05:29  <lmacken> abadger1999: ah, gotcha.
2007-09-27T14:05:30 <dgilmore> mmcgrath: i dont want to see us get to the point where we have to say sorry we cant host things anymore
2007-09-27T14:05:33  <mmcgrath> dgilmore: the 1T server or the 242G we have?
2007-09-27T14:05:50  <dgilmore> mmcgrath: well for future needs?
2007-09-27T14:06:01 <mmcgrath> dgilmore: I say we do a trial (we talked about it a bit on FAB) with first come first surve until we get a more dedicated source.
2007-09-27T14:06:01  <dgilmore> i know its not accurate  but really both
2007-09-27T14:06:03  <nirik> could jigdo help here?
2007-09-27T14:06:50 <dgilmore> mmcgrath: ok. as long as we communicate that 2007-09-27T14:07:25 <mmcgrath> nirik: does anyone really use jigdo though? - http://www.google.com/trends?q=jigdo%2C+bittorrent
2007-09-27T14:07:32  <mmcgrath> jeremy: ?
2007-09-27T14:07:42  <nirik> debian does a lot.
2007-09-27T14:07:45 <jeremy> mmcgrath: infrastructure definitely could help. there are more people really workin gon infrastructure than rel-eng 2007-09-27T14:07:56 <jeremy> nirik: jigdo can't help with live images at all 2007-09-27T14:08:02 <EvilBob> People don't use jigdo because it is not offered as an atractive option 2007-09-27T14:08:04 <jeremy> nirik: which are the "interesting" things to provide really
2007-09-27T14:08:15  <VileGent> jeremy, ??
2007-09-27T14:08:16  <nirik> yeah, I guess thats true. ;(
2007-09-27T14:08:36  <VileGent> nm
2007-09-27T14:08:42 <mmcgrath> jeremy: so my concern here is to make sure that this process doesn't rely soley on just you and jesse (you all have enough to worry about with the official spins) 2007-09-27T14:08:44 <EvilBob> people sit an leach off of BT and act like they are doing the world a service by capping their upstream 2007-09-27T14:08:53 <nirik> since the livecd is already installed image, it can't get a jigdo template to get packages from different mirrors. ;( 2007-09-27T14:08:57 <mmcgrath> Is there things we can do now or in the next couple of weeks?
2007-09-27T14:09:00  <jeremy> nirik: correct
2007-09-27T14:09:01  <mmcgrath> s/Is/Are/
2007-09-27T14:09:19 <jeremy> mmcgrath: it's something that we could do to get more people involved with rel-eng, though. and in a pretty easy way 2007-09-27T14:09:48 <jeremy> mmcgrath: to be honest, even if it's right now still just me doing the extra spins, I'd still like to get the infrastructure in place (and have been meaning to send a mail for, oh, six weeks now but haven't gotten around to it) 2007-09-27T14:09:50 <mmcgrath> we do have a sysadmin-torrent group already for building torrents. We could delegate some of that to rel-eng. 2007-09-27T14:10:15 <jeremy> mmcgrath: I might say introduce a new spinmaster group or some such. plus, that sounds cool :) 2007-09-27T14:10:19 <mmcgrath> My main question is actually building the images from a ks and who can be trusted to do that?
2007-09-27T14:10:24  <mmcgrath> heh
2007-09-27T14:10:31  *** glezos has joined #fedora-meeting
2007-09-27T14:10:37  * glezos jumps in
2007-09-27T14:10:38 <dwmw2_gone> we should remember to seed the trackers at http://www.sixxs.net/tools/tracker/ when we release 2007-09-27T14:11:00 <jima> dwmw2_gone: yeah, someone with ipv6 needs to remember to do that ;) 2007-09-27T14:11:02 <jeremy> the big thing is that the config needs to just be checked over -- you can have %post --nochroot, and it's running as root, so .... 2007-09-27T14:11:16 * jima finds himself wishing, yet again, that he had native ipv6.
2007-09-27T14:11:30  <dgilmore> jima: as do i
2007-09-27T14:11:35  <dwmw2_gone> jima: doesn't take much to arrange it
2007-09-27T14:11:48  <dwmw2_gone> just set up a tunnel from sixxs.net
2007-09-27T14:11:49 <jeremy> but as looking over and doing sign off of the config is needed anyway, that shouldn't be a big deal
2007-09-27T14:11:50  <jima> dwmw2_gone: i did say "native" :P
2007-09-27T14:11:50 <mmcgrath> dwmw2_gone: add that to - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/SOP/Release if you get a moment
2007-09-27T14:12:01  <dwmw2_gone> mmcgrath: will do
2007-09-27T14:12:08 <dgilmore> dwmw2_gone: i have a tunnel. just not native support from my isp 2007-09-27T14:12:10 <mmcgrath> jeremy: Do we have any place on the wiki for this stuff or should I create one?
2007-09-27T14:12:36  * jima has numerous tunnels
2007-09-27T14:12:43 <dwmw2_gone> jima: even I don't have "native" at the moment -- I have a tunnel from my ISP. The ISP does support native IPv6 on PPP on the DSL, but I'm temporarily using a non-Linux box as a router (since I blew up the USB ports on my telephone exchange/router) 2007-09-27T14:12:45 <jeremy> mmcgrath: no place at the moment... if you want to start one, I can help flesh it out 2007-09-27T14:13:06 <mmcgrath> jeremy: k, I'll get some initial stuff setup. Including the spins.fp.o site. 2007-09-27T14:13:23 <jima> dwmw2_gone: even a tunnel from your immediate upstream isp is better than from halfway across the internet :( 2007-09-27T14:13:28 <dwmw2_gone> mmcgrath: or on the TorrentRelease page which that page refers to? 2007-09-27T14:13:30 <jeremy> mmcgrath: sounds good. and hopefully the board will agree with us :-) 2007-09-27T14:13:33 <mmcgrath> jeremy: the other question is who should approve secondary spins. I think FESCo would be good for that but some think board. What do you think?
2007-09-27T14:13:33  <dwmw2_gone> oh. The TorrentRelease page doesn't exist
2007-09-27T14:13:43  <f13> why not rel-eng itself?
2007-09-27T14:14:00 <jeremy> mmcgrath: it's trademark guidelines. the board can delegate if they want, but ultimately, control of the trademark rests with the board at the moment 2007-09-27T14:14:02 <f13> there are already guidelines, releng (who knows how to validate this stuff) could just once over and make sure things are being done right.
2007-09-27T14:14:09  <f13> or that.
2007-09-27T14:14:13  <EvilBob> rel-eng +1
2007-09-27T14:15:03 <mmcgrath> so a two part approval? releng says this is technically ready and the board says "give it our trademark" ? 2007-09-27T14:15:06 <dgilmore> mmcgrath: right now the board due to what jeremy said
2007-09-27T14:15:18  <dgilmore> mmcgrath: yup
2007-09-27T14:15:25  <mmcgrath> f13: that sound reasonable to you?
2007-09-27T14:16:38  *** bklemm has joined #fedora-meeting
2007-09-27T14:17:12 <mmcgrath> Ok, we'll just go with that for now. it will likely take some time before this completely gets flushed out anyway. I'll start an initial page and point rahul at it with the exception that he be patient as we're still working it out. 2007-09-27T14:17:19 <mmcgrath> Anyone else have anything to discuss on that topic? 2007-09-27T14:17:58 <jeremy> thanks for jumping in and doing some quick thinking on it 2007-09-27T14:18:42 <dwmw2_gone> mmcgrath: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/SOP/Release?action=diff
2007-09-27T14:18:46  <f13> mmcgrath: seems fine to me.
2007-09-27T14:18:59  <mmcgrath> solid.
2007-09-27T14:19:04  * mmcgrath is glad to get moving on that.
2007-09-27T14:19:37  <mmcgrath> Ok, on to the next topic
2007-09-27T14:19:45 *** mmcgrath changes topic to "Infrastructure -- Schedule - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Schedule"; 2007-09-27T14:20:18 <mmcgrath> Corporate Sponsorship. We're getting some more interest in this but no new sponsors this week. 2007-09-27T14:20:40 <mmcgrath> I've been asking for some collaboration servers to host dedicated instances of gobby, pastebins, asterisk and a few other things we use to work together. 2007-09-27T14:21:02 <mmcgrath> I'm looking for a 1T torrent server both as an upgrade to our current server and because the current torrent is getting old.
2007-09-27T14:21:03  <lmacken> sweet
2007-09-27T14:21:18 <mmcgrath> I've also been pushing to find a new hosting server with about 1T of storage and onsite backup.
2007-09-27T14:21:45  <f13> nice
2007-09-27T14:21:47 <mmcgrath> I figure if we can get that setup and keep an off site backup in PHX hosted will be a very viable and attractive solution when combined with the Fedoraverse. 2007-09-27T14:22:00 <f13> mmcgrath: what ever happened to the blade center thing? 2007-09-27T14:22:17 <mmcgrath> f13: the last thing I heard from Jay Madison was "we'll tell you when we hear more" 2007-09-27T14:22:29 <mmcgrath> We're quickly coming up on a year of that thing just sitting on the floor.
2007-09-27T14:22:45  <jima> how big is it?
2007-09-27T14:22:58 <mmcgrath> jima: I think its more the power thats the problem, not the height.
2007-09-27T14:23:01  * mmcgrath digs up last email
2007-09-27T14:24:22  <jeremy> jima: it's a bladecenter.  they're 14U iirc
2007-09-27T14:24:44 <jima> jeremy: i don't know bladecenters; that second part helps. ;) 2007-09-27T14:24:55 <jeremy> (but my RC may well not be... waaaayy too much rattling around in my head today :) 2007-09-27T14:25:28 <mmcgrath> f13: yeah, last email I got was on 9/04/07 that said "none yet, standby please. We'll let you know when we have everything with this sorted out. "
2007-09-27T14:25:42  <mmcgrath> So thats the latest.
2007-09-27T14:26:17 <mmcgrath> So anyway, thats the latest on corporate sponsorship, any questions before moving on? 2007-09-27T14:27:04 <mmcgrath> The next item on the schedule is architecture documentation. I've added a few bits to - http://git.fedoraproject.org/hosted/fedora-infrastructure.git/architecture/
2007-09-27T14:27:06  <jeremy> jima: whoops.  7U, 14 blades.
2007-09-27T14:27:09  <mmcgrath> I haven't updated the wiki yet.
2007-09-27T14:27:18  <mmcgrath> jeremy: there you go, that sounds better :)
2007-09-27T14:27:29  <dgilmore> 20amps :)
2007-09-27T14:27:38  <jima> 20amps. hmm.
2007-09-27T14:27:42  <dgilmore> actually 25 i think
2007-09-27T14:27:50  <jeremy> also serves as a space heater for the winter
2007-09-27T14:27:51  <jima> 25 makes it a bit trickier :P
2007-09-27T14:28:02  <dgilmore> would need to double check
2007-09-27T14:28:11  <dgilmore> its 20 or 25
2007-09-27T14:28:24 <mmcgrath> ricky: I've added that image to point to a proper location :) 2007-09-27T14:29:04 <mmcgrath> Next item - SOP's - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/SOP/Bodhi 2007-09-27T14:29:17 <mmcgrath> I think lmacken's sop about bodhi is the only new one.
2007-09-27T14:29:18  <mmcgrath> thanks lmacken
2007-09-27T14:29:21  <lmacken> no prob
2007-09-27T14:29:25  <ricky> mmcgrath: Ah, thanks :)
2007-09-27T14:29:36 <lmacken> the data was already on bodhi's wiki.. i just pointed to it :) 2007-09-27T14:29:56 <mmcgrath> And as far as new sponsorship goes, no new sponsors this week though kyriakos_ has been working on learning the build system
2007-09-27T14:30:11  <mmcgrath> a bold move :)
2007-09-27T14:31:00  <jima> heh
2007-09-27T14:31:40 <mmcgrath> Ok, so thats all I've got. I'll open the floor. 2007-09-27T14:31:45 *** mmcgrath changes topic to "Infrastructure -- Open Floor"
2007-09-27T14:31:50  <mmcgrath> anyone have anything to dicsuss?
2007-09-27T14:32:08 <lmacken> I'm going to be working with dan walsh at some point soon to resolve our SELinux "situation" 2007-09-27T14:32:40 <mmcgrath> lmacken: thanks. I'm fine with using SELinux but we need to have a valid way to manage it and deploy with puppet. 2007-09-27T14:32:51 <lmacken> so if you've had any gripes /concerns with selinux in our infrastructure, please let me know so we can address it
2007-09-27T14:33:00  <lmacken> mmcgrath: ok
2007-09-27T14:33:01  <mmcgrath> skvidal: ?
2007-09-27T14:33:03  <mmcgrath> :-P
2007-09-27T14:33:25  *** rdieter has quit IRC
2007-09-27T14:33:25  <skvidal> sorry
2007-09-27T14:33:27  <skvidal> one sec
2007-09-27T14:33:38  <skvidal> what is our 'selinux situation'
2007-09-27T14:33:45  <skvidal> define it
2007-09-27T14:33:48  <mmcgrath> skvidal: just that we don't use it.
2007-09-27T14:33:51  <lmacken> yes.
2007-09-27T14:33:59  <skvidal> uh huh....
2007-09-27T14:34:07 <skvidal> lmacken: here's what I have to say and people can be pissed at me 2007-09-27T14:34:09 <mmcgrath> and it'd be good for Fedora if we did use it. 2007-09-27T14:34:32 <lmacken> mmcgrath: ourselves too.. in that it would have helped mitigate some issues in the past 2007-09-27T14:34:39 <skvidal> If you break a server "fixing" selinux I'm going to be angry :) 2007-09-27T14:34:54 <mmcgrath> welllllll, mitigate==completely hide in the last case. 2007-09-27T14:35:16 <mmcgrath> I go back and forth about selinux, I'm rarely in the middle about it but I'm willing to give it a shot.
2007-09-27T14:35:18  <f13> lets start with permissive and work from there.
2007-09-27T14:35:25 <lmacken> mmcgrath: yeah.. but those are the two biggest concerns we're faced with that we need to resolve: 1) shit doesn't break 2) we know about selinux violations
2007-09-27T14:35:26  <f13> that's sufficiently middle.
2007-09-27T14:35:33 <skvidal> let's start with a justification for why we need it on
2007-09-27T14:35:35  <skvidal> then work from there
2007-09-27T14:35:39 <f13> we can see the denials and yell at people about them, but it wont' actually stop us from doing anything. 2007-09-27T14:35:47 <mmcgrath> skvidal: it would add security and thats a good thing. 2007-09-27T14:36:00 <skvidal> mmcgrath: I have a lot of questions about the net win we get from it
2007-09-27T14:36:02  <jima> mmcgrath: [tm]
2007-09-27T14:36:26 <skvidal> in much the same way I'm illconvinced of how things like mugshot are obviously beneficial - but then most people call me a stick-in-the-mud
2007-09-27T14:36:42  <dgilmore> skvidal: your an old fuddy duddy
2007-09-27T14:36:45  <dgilmore> but so am i
2007-09-27T14:36:56 <mmcgrath> skvidal: I agree with you on it. But having said that selinux has changed a lot since I last started looking at it.
2007-09-27T14:37:02  <jima> geez, all you fogeys
2007-09-27T14:37:06 <mmcgrath> I'm willing to give it a second shot, especially if its not me doing the work :)
2007-09-27T14:37:20  *** tibbs has quit IRC
2007-09-27T14:37:23  <jeremy> skvidal: stick-in-the-mud
2007-09-27T14:37:36 <mmcgrath> lmacken: if you and dan come back with some 20 step process we have to follow every time we change a config... we'll probably not use it. 2007-09-27T14:37:45 <mmcgrath> but if you can make it dead simple, I'm for it. 2007-09-27T14:37:49 <lmacken> mmcgrath: understandable.. the point is to make it Just Work with our setup. 2007-09-27T14:38:03 <dgilmore> lmacken: selinux needs alot of work to work with mock/koji/plague 2007-09-27T14:38:07 <f13> which may be hard, as Ii'm sure we color outside the lines a bit. 2007-09-27T14:38:14 <mmcgrath> lmacken: work closely with dan on it and we'll start with permissive mode.
2007-09-27T14:38:16  <f13> ya know, /srv/ and all
2007-09-27T14:38:21  <lmacken> mmcgrath: sounds good
2007-09-27T14:38:27 <f13> I'm not terribly interested in spending a ton of time rewriting policy 2007-09-27T14:38:36 <dgilmore> mmcgrath: i usually just put the boxes in permissive mode
2007-09-27T14:38:42  *** GeroldKa has joined #fedora-meeting
2007-09-27T14:38:44  *** fabian_a has joined #fedora-meeting
2007-09-27T14:39:00 <skvidal> lmacken: and make no modifications to production machines 2007-09-27T14:39:15 <lmacken> skvidal: definitely won't until we have a game plan 2007-09-27T14:39:42 <mmcgrath> lmacken: yeah, come up with a full plan and send it to the list before we get started. starting on the xen dom0's would probably be a good place to start.
2007-09-27T14:39:52  <lmacken> mmcgrath: will do
2007-09-27T14:40:11 <mmcgrath> Ok, if no one has anything else we'll move on.
2007-09-27T14:40:22  * dgilmore has nothing
2007-09-27T14:40:44  <mmcgrath> ok, we'll close in 30
2007-09-27T14:40:49  *** kital has quit IRC
2007-09-27T14:41:00  <mmcgrath> 15
2007-09-27T14:41:11  <mmcgrath> 5
2007-09-27T14:41:18 *** mmcgrath changes topic to "Infrastructure -- Meeting End"


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