Comments on bug 140214 - the removal of X utilities?

[Bryan Ischo]

> This is no different than other packages (i.e. kernel features).  If
> upstream has plans to remove a feature, it is best to get that change in
> as early as possible to see the effects.

Perhaps so.  Exactly what effects are you expecting to see the result of
from removing a couple of utility programs, aside from user consternation
that these programs are no longer available?

In other words, I think that your points about kernel packages and the
like are good ones, but I don't see how they apply here.

> To quote Mike "In the future, when X.Org X11 is modularized for
> X11R7...".
>  That doesn't sound anything like "so X.org *may* be removing these
>> programs at *some indefinite time* in the future".  That sounds more
> like X.org will be removing them for the X11R7 release.

I apologize, I was deliberately being a little obtuse here.  I surmised
that the date on which this will occur is indefinite because it's not
clear to me that "plans" to do something are necessarily always carried
out and because I don't know the release schedule for X11R7 or when that
will happen.  Also I don't know what X.org's plans or for these programs. 
Maybe they are going to be removing these programs completely as well, in
which case my arguments should be made with X.org itself.

But it seems that what's really being suggested is that they will still be
included but in a more "modularized" fashion.  If this is true then
wouldn't Fedora Core's best means for satisfying your previous assertion -
that it's best to mimic pending upstream changes sooner rather than
waiting for it to actually happen - be to modularize these programs now by
moving them into their own package, rather than removing them completely?

> Packages don't just get magically updated by being moved to Extras.
> There has to be someone to maintain them.  If someone is interested in
> doing the work to maintain a package for Extras then they can do so.
> Putting a package in and hoping someone takes care of it is not a good
> thing.

Once X.org is modularized I would be happy to maintain the RPM associated
with the lesser-used X.org components.  Until then, it just doesn't make
alot of sense to me to have to come up with a completely new spec file,
which I am not sure but I imagine will be burdensome because these
programs are still so embedded in the X.org software base, rather than
simply leaving them in the current spec *until X.org's software itself is
amenable to such modularization*.

>> Why remove programs without setting up the RPMs for them in Fedora
>> Extras?
>
> Maybe no one wants to maintain it.  If so, then it will never be in
> Extras.  There is no sense in waiting on someone to step up because you
> will be waiting a long time.

As I asserted previously, removing them is actually *more* maintainance
work than actually leaving them in.  It took more effort to find all of
the places in the x11-org spec file that needed to be commented out, and
do so, then it has probably ever taken to actually maintain these programs
since RedHat 1 was first released.

I would be happy to "step up" and edit the x11-org spec file myself to
undo the comments that Mike A. Harris applied, but I have no access to
this.

>> It doesn't seem to make alot of sense to remove programs without first
>> ensuring that they have a place in their new more appropriate
>> location.
>
> It make perfect sense.  This way if it is important enough to someone
> they will step up and do it.  If you wait around for someone to
> volunteer you will be waiting a long time, because everyone will assume
> that it will be in Core forever.

Like I said, I will be happy to "step up".  I am unhappy that in order to
do so I have to do 1000x the work that would need to be done if Fedora
Core would, rather than applying its own - if I may suggest - arbitrary
decision to remove these programs, wait to modularize away these programs
until the actual X.org project has done so.

Thanks,
Bryan

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Bryan Ischo             bryan at ischo.com                          N, R, 6
New York, NY, USA       http://www.ischo.com            RedHat Linux 7.3
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