NetworkManager update

[Matthew Saltzman]

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Thursday 27 April 2006 22:17, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> I've been trolling that list for nearly a week now, and haven't
>>> found anyone who understands the problem well enough to ask me have
>>> you done this, and that, and this other thing?  The assumption is
>>> that it Just Works(TM) and it doesn't with my hardware.
>>
>> One more time: If you aren't getting satisfaction from this list, take
>> your question to networkmanager-list at gnome.org (subscribe at
>> mail.gnome.org).  The people who read that list will know what
>> questions to ask and are in the best position to either help you out
>> or fix bugs in NM.
>>
>> What's so objectionable about that?
>>
> Matthew, I just stated that I've been subbed to that list for several
> days.  And I'm not finding any magical pixie dust there either.  Lets
> face it, I'm walking on ground thats not been tread on before, and the

I apologize, I completely misread which mailing list you were referring 
to, and I haven't been reading that list closely enough to see your thread 
there and connect it back to this one.  Must have been tired when I 
responded.

I see you do indeed seem to be operating hardware that requires 
interaction of a number of different, independently developed, bleeding 
edge bits--ndiswrapper and the closed-source driver for your card, the 
open-source driver for your card, NetworkManager, etc.  That will require 
patience and time and interacting with the developers.

> ability to get clear back down to the basics in starting to solve a
> problem seems to have gotten lost in the assumption that 'everyone
> knows about that' when we don't always.  And I don't think I'm being
> out of line all that much when I do attempt to draw a picture of what
> I've got hardware wise, and describe what isn't working without
> spending 4 paragraphs per piece of hardware in the path, and failing to
> do so in a manner that allows those who might be able answer my
> question, because they are lost at turn two in an 8 turn road course
> I've tried to describe.
>
> Thats my fault to a certain extent of course, and I tend to bypass whats
> important to others because I've been there and done that and I see
> that particular item as already checked and unimportant.  But it leads
> to others being confused because my train of thought tends to jump
> around depending on the clues. I've spent the majority of my 71 years
> fixing electronics things for a living, and I don't always understand
> that others don't jump to the answers from what limited info I've got,
> but I can because after 55 years, you get a sense of smell & feeling
> that lets you bypass the intermediate steps others would use to
> confirm, and I've been right often enough that one person, watching me
> work, wanted to know if I had webbed feet because surely I was walking
> on water as far as he was concerned.

Well, understanding that about yourself, you can understand how developers 
can get into the same mindset.  They have the benefit of knowledge about 
the field they're working in as well, and it is all too easy to act as 
though everyone has the same knowledge framework as you do.

But to effectively work with a diverse group of specialists such as the 
driver authors and the ndiswrapper authors and the NM and wpa_supplicant 
authors, you will need to (a) get out of that mindset yourself and be 
disciplined about gathering evidence and working your way through the 
process and (b) encourage the developers you are working with to get out 
of their mindset and communicate with you enough so that you reach common 
understanding.  As I said, patience and perseverance are needed.

For example, if you want to try the open-source driver for your card (the 
best long-run solution), you'll need to learn to build and install kernel 
modules.  And you'll need to fight through the lack of documentation while 
encouraging people to solve that problem (and maybe even contributing 
yourself).

>
> Unforch, that 'intuition' seems to be fading as I get into the 7th
> decade.  And I should have used "subscribed" rather than "trolling"
> above, but thats what I feel I'm doing, throwing out a line and
> trolling for nibbles.

Sure, although "trolling" here usually refers to deliberate attempts to 
incite flame wars--not your intention, I'm sure.

-- 
 		Matthew Saltzman

Clemson University Math Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu
http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs