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Re: [Usability] Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 08:14:18PM +0100, Mark wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Olav Vitters <olav bkor dhs org> wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 07:02:26PM +0100, Mark wrote:
> >> To the people reading the gnome usability list and see this for the
> >> first time.. look here for the full discussion (about 150 posts):
> >> http://fcp.surfsite.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=65669&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&start=0
> > [..]
> >> Now on topic.
> >> Lets do a little rounding up (conclusions how i see them! correct me
> >> if i'm wrong on any of them)
> >>
> >> 1. Somewhere in 2003 or 2004 it is decided for whatever reason to make
> >> the spatial mode in nautilus and put it as the default mode. To my
> >> knowledge no research is done if people even wanted that. it just got
> >> pushed through there throat and they are expected to just take it in
> >> not spit it out. We are now (and a lot of users back then) spitting
> >> that decision out and clear that bad taste. Nearly all gnome based
> >
> > Please keep it constructive. Above comparison is not. You will likely
> > get heated responses because of it (see also below).
> >
> >> distributions do the same and the people using those distributions
> >> seems to be happy about the browser mode.
> >
> > You provide no basis for that statement.
> No basis.. do i need one? Look at Ubuntu and all other distros that
> provide gnome and see how much of them use the browser or spatial
> mode.

"people using those distributions seems to be happy about the browser mode"

is your interpretation. Just because people use browser mode doesn't
make it better than spatial mode. Nor a distro default means that
everyone agrees.

> >> 2. I always was under the impression that gnome especially was a
> >> democracy but it turns out it's under dictatorship and then call it:
> >> "Meritocracy" with a dictator like taste.
> >
> > Please don't make such loaded comparisons if you want to continue to
> > post to a GNOME mailing list. See http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct.
> > I've read most of the thread on the Fedora mailing list. I am not
> > interested in a repeat.
> It's just an observation and seems to be true till this moment.

Whatever you call it, it is not appreciated.

> >> 3. Fedora has a community but when the community starts demanding
> >> something (use the browser mode as default) then it turns out that the
> >
> > A few votes on a mailing list. This has been dismissed already.
> >
> >> 4. There is just ONE person here that decided to make it spatial and
> >> that one person can't be convinced (Alexander Larson). Just look at
> >
> > That is not true.
> Then give me a link where that disision is made otherwise i see it as true.

That is the other way around. You want a change, you do the work.

> >> 5. I was about to open a bug report on gnome for this now but it turns
> >> out there is one already:
> >> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=427628
> >
> > Just general FYI: Discussion is not appreciated on (bgo) bugreports
> > (should be done elsewhere, e.g. in a mailing list), so please do not add
> > comments about things that have been said before.
> > The purpose of a bugreport is to discuss how the bug should be fixed
> > (which in above bugreport would just be a config change).
> I don't agree on that. i even saw ppl on the gnome bugzilla
> (developers!) telling the other users to post it to the mailing
> list(s) as well to raise awareness. And i think i did that.

It does not matter if you agree. I'm advising how to behave on GNOME
Bugzilla as bugmaster of GNOME bugzilla.

You can raise awareness, yes. And finally that can be pointed out on the
bugreport. What I meant is having everyone add loads of 'me too'
comments. It makes the bugreport difficult to read.

> >> 6. Convincing people.. yea possible but is FOUR (yes 4!) FREAKING
> >> YEARS not proof enough that there decision was wrong. If that doesn't
> >> convince them, again mainly or even only Alexander Larson, then they
> >> can simply not be convinced in this subject.
> >
> > Baseless statement. In your mind the decision is wrong. However, you
> > even haven't convinced everyone of that fact. This was already mentioned
> > on the Fedora mailing list.
> Not only in my mind. the majority agrees with me that browser mode
> should be the default.
> And to give that a base. read this full list and search on google.

Only a few people responded to that. On Google, I see enough people how
love spatial mode.

> > What helps: determine what usability thought was behind the spatial
> > mode. Then perform multiple real usability studies to show that for an
> > unbiased person spatial mode causes more problems than browser mode.
> >
> I think the most you could ask of me is what was done to get spatial
> in it to begin with.
> They didn't seem to conduct a study so i won't do that to revert there
> change. Also to conduct a study takes weeks or months and by that time
> this discussion is cooled down and put in the fridge. So your actually
> asking me to spend months conducting a study to just be silent here.
> And so if i did a study what then?

In my observation within GNOME it is pretty easy to convince people if
you can show something is bad/good for usability. That is why I
suggested that. If you think your way of convincing will help your
cause, try that of course.

> I did do a small one on google for the "new" (in 2004) spatial feature.
> I didn't intent to post a bunch of links here but i will do so now.

I didn't like spatial mode when it was introduced. I like it now (as
default). There have been changes made that made it better based on the
initial feedback.

Note: there are times I use the browser mode as well.

Olav (if it wasn't clear: GNOME mailing list moderator, bugmaster, etc)

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