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Re: trends in fedora

Arthur Pemberton wrote:
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Russell Strong <russell strong id au> wrote:

I've just installed Fedora 9 on my laptop, and unfortunately a few things
are getting worse in Fedora.

Network management has always been awkward on Fedora and with Fedora 9 it's
getting much worse.

1. I have always edited the config files directly to get things working.
 And still have to ( it's just a straight forward wireless connection ).

Wireless isn't straightforward in Linux at all, mostly due to hardware issues.

When something works without configuration in the initial release of FC9 and stops after a NetworkManager update, I would bet a six pack of good beer that hardware isn't the issue.

2. NetworkManager is now the default on install, BUT...

Wireless was unworkable for me before NetworkManager

  2.1 NetworkManager does not give you a wireless connection when no user is
logged in.

I think, while that may be a short coming, it is fairly standard
between GNU/Linux and Windows (possibly Mac). At least with Linux, you
can get around that, one day, maybe even using NetworkManager

You can get around it by disabling or even removing NM and setting the network code correctly. Or better yet using a script run rc.sysinit. NM just runs way too late to be of use.

        2.1.1 How am I going to run any network service, NTP, NFS, httpd,
etc..... without a network?

I don't think servers using wireless cards as their primary route is a
target use case of NetworkManager yet.

Given that the network isn't brought up until the user logs in I don't think "server" is at issue here, other than the ones you can't reach. As in mounting home files on NFS, as in using LDAP, RADIUS, or Kerberos to validate the login, etc, etc. In other words the whole NM concept is wrong, it's "Windows think" ported to Linux, ignoring the common case where the computer does something useful other than wait for a keystroke.

For clients, I'm not sure what the idea is for NTP, and using autofs
to mount your NFS shares will fix this issue.

        2.1.2 How am I going to remotely administer my machines?

Seems like you'll need an init script to setup some default wireless connection

You have that right, but it's the kind of think NM could and should be doing. And I don't think autofs is much good when you have no network until you log in. :-(

  2.2 NetworkManager does not give you the ability to configure system wide
networking services or policy.

I'm not sure what you mean here, so I withhold comments

The network is not a user resource, it is a system resource (in most cases). Setting up the network should be an administrative thing. NM was designed for Joe Hacker, who is competent, to be able to configure the network. Think Suzie Smallbiz, who provides these to sales critters and management, and want IT to be the only part of the organization toughing the network settings. Think corporate VPN, etc.

NM should be usable from the boot rc files (easily) and available only under controlled access to the rest of the users.

  2.3 NetworkManager does not have any decent documentation.

Fair problem

3. Try using WPA and DHCP at the same time.It's never worked in this or
any previous Fedora.  Yes, NM will do it, but that's no good because of the
previously stated problems.

Here, I suggest you try to work closesly with the NetworkManager devs
to solve the problems you have with it, as NM is meant to solve
problems like this.

See above, I can't say it won't, but I do say I believe it's the wrong problem, and NM sould be easily (and usually) used as a configured system resource, not restricted to user use by lack of interface (or documentation).

the network service won't do it because it
tries to run DHCP immediately after bringing up the interfaces...It SHOULD
wait until wpa_supplicant has run and the interface is available for traffic
before kicking off DHCP...

Again, I don't think that servers using wifi+dhpc without a logged in
user is as yet a target use case for NM. If you can suggest tweaks to
the devs, maybe they can implement them for you

See above, these aren't servers.

Bill Davidsen <davidsen tmr com>
  "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot

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