Music Appreciation teaching program ??

[Tim]

Tim:
>> Just imagine how much better they could have been!  ;-)  Sorry,
>> couldn't resist.


Craig White:
> I know you were sort of joking here but I also cannot resist because I
> seriously doubt whether any classical education would have made them
> better and in fact, it might have restricted their thinking. One of the
> things about much of the Beatles music that made them unique was the
> fact that they did not follow traditional patterns of chord progressions
> or melodies. 

I don't think it would have restricted them.  The composers that created
something that sounds good, I would have to say, all figured that bit
out for themselves (much like painting, paint an accurate picture, or a
beautify one, personal skill has more of a role in the latter).

You can algorithmically create music following a traditional set of
rules, but it won't sound very good.  Having the talent to make
decisions within the norm, and knowing when to break it, is another
skill.  One that wouldn't be discouraged by formal training, only
enhanced (the more you know, the more you can do).  Otherwise all
formally trained musicians would sound the same, and they don't.

> I am a decent guitar player and I have had lessons and can read music
> but I have found much more talented guitar players that can't tell you
> what key they are in. There is a natural talent that some have that goes
> way beyond any training. People can train all they wish but no amount of
> training can substitute for talent.

Yes and no...  

I can play by ear, sometimes even copy someone with perfect pitch (for
the curious, look up relative versus perfect pitch), but I doubt I could
name the pitch just by listening to it.  Others certainly can.  That's
more of a personal skill issue than training.

If I were playing it, I could probably tell you what key it was in,
because I'd know what notes and chords I'd been playing, and would know
what key those notes fitted into.  "Probably" in that my training was as
intense as those with real formal training, and much shorter in
duration.  So I could easily pick something in C, but the keys in
something like E flat minor, for instance, aren't something I'm that
very familiar with.  That's something where more training would help
more than just personal skill levels.

Knowing the key allows me to improvise some things, e.g. playing fancier
bass lines, rather than just the written notes, because I know what goes
well.  But I'm a keyboard player, not a bass player, so my skill level
on that side of things is lesser.  And I can't improvise much on the
chords/keys I'm not that familiar with - a training *and* skill issue.

>> Yes, there's a lot of talented people without formal training.  But I
>> tend to be more impressed by those with it.  And they're certainly
>> more able to work with other trained musicians, as they know how tell
>> each other what needs doing.  "More, um, thingy," doesn't work too
>> well.

> you're speaking in generalities here.

Naturally...  To talk in specifics, would need an awfully long e-mail,
with tons of ifs/thens/elses clauses...  ;-)

> Someone who is that talented has no problem playing with others even
> if they don't know the key. They know music and they know their
> instrument. I know a fair number of musicians and if they are
> talented, whether they have any classical training doesn't matter much
> to playing rock and roll with or without others.

I was thinking of more than just playing...  But even with just playing,
there's more than just knowing the key.  I'd say good arranging is more
a training, than figuring it out yourself, thing.  

And going back to my "more thingy" comment.  For example, I've told
someone that they should do the notes less staccato, and let the bass
note ring longer, but you get a blank stare from those without any
musical training.  So what could have been a quick change, if you all
know the lingo, to improve something becomes a long winded explanation
of what you mean:  Think of quickly plucking a string, and letting go so
that it can ring until it dies naturally away, rather than a quick
"plunk" that rapidly cuts off.

Training in playing percussion instruments would cover more things than
most people would think would be involved with what looks like a simple
instrument.  Sure, you could pick an instrument up and do something with
it, but knowing what hundreds of years of people playing it before you
have been able to do with it, gives you much more that you could do with
it.

If anyone thinks that classical music is staid, they should listen to
some of the more avant guard stuff.  I don't think formal training dulls
the performance one bit.

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