Why don't you guys like synaptic?

[Kim Lux]

This is my last post on this subject.  It appears as though some of us
disagree.  I'll leave it at that. Comments below. 


On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 18:43 -0500, Paul Iadonisi wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 15:39 -0700, Kim Lux wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > The issue here IS that someone came on the list and told me the <sound>
> > problem was the result of running an upgrade instead of installing
> > fresh. (FC2 to FC3t3.)  I was guaranteed that installing fresh would fix
> > the issue.  Instead the issue has stayed with us through 4 releases.  
> 
>   *sigh*  WHY do you keep mushing together different complaints?


They are all the same basic complaint: people use the fact that someone
UPGRADED as an excuse not to take bugs seriously.  My sound example was
just that, an example.  The topic hasn't changed since my first post.


>   Or
> maybe you're not, but I think you are confusing what was recommended, or
> not quoted enough of it below (please include links into the archives
> when you cite what someone has posted if you can ... it helps
> tremendously).

To make it clear: I no longer have an issue with sound.  I am only using
it as an example of when a bug was thought to have been caused by an
UPGRADE when in fact the upgrade had NOTHING to do with it. 

>   If you do this (not saying you did, but...):
> 
> 1) Install FC2 and get working sound
> 2) Upgrade your FC2 to FC3T3 and sound breaks
> 3) Upgrade to FC3RC3 and sound is still broken
> 4) Get told that sound problem was fixed in FC3RC3
> 5) Find that your sound is still broken in FC3RC3
> 6) Get told to install FC3RC3 fresh
Yep. 


>   Then that is a perfectly reasonable thing to tell you to do because
> when you upgraded FC2 to FC3T3, it broke your sound.  

Yes it did.  FC3T3 broke my sound.  At that point we have a bug that
needs to be investigated.  IT IS NOT PRUDENT TO TELL SOMEONE TO
REINSTALL FROM FRESH HERE.  IT IS TIME TO FIX THE BUG, NOT REINSTALL.
(I'm not shouting, just emphasizing... I don't have bold...) 

> Upgrading from
> FC3T3 to FC3RC3 did not fix it and probably will never be fixed because
> upgrades from test->rc is not going to be supported.  

Wrong answer !  Every upgrade should work.  If the bug was fixed in
FC3RC3, it should have worked fine.  It would have.


> So in reality, you
> have two options to determine if the problem is fixed.  You're install
> is in a broken state due to the upgrade from FC2->FC3T3 breaking it and
> doing FC3T3->FC3RC3 didn't fix it.  So you can either 1) install FC2
> fresh and upgrade to FC3RC3 to see if it works or 2) install FC3RC3
> fresh to see if it works.

Wrong answer again !  You shouldn't have to reinstall to see if a bug is
fixed !!!  THIS ISN'T WINDOWS !  (Emphasis, not shouting.)  I actually
did option number 2 and proved the bug wasn't fixed. 

As far as I am concerned, if upgrading doesn't fix the bug, then then
neither will installing fresh.  Thinking that installing fresh will fix
a bug is ludicrous !  Either all the packages are the same on the
install are they aren't.  It doesn't matter if they came from upgrade or
fresh. 


>   You also note in the bugzilla entry that you did your blacklist
> workaround after *upgrading* to FC3 final.  These seems to imply
> (correct me if I'm wrong) that you upgraded from FC3RC3->FC3 which is
> absolutely not supported.

Yep, that is what I did.  I don't give a darn if it is "supported" or
not.  It should work.  Don't you dare tell me I should have installed
FC3final from fresh !  I posted my fix on 2 other sites and 2 other
people have emailed me with thanks for helping them.  The sound problem
had NOTHING to do with fresh or upgrade. 

>   So the question is, did you ever do one of the following?  a) Upgrade
> from a clean FC2 to FC3RC[3-5] without any intervening upgrades to FC3T
> [1-3] or FC3RC[1-2] and confirm that the sound problem still exists 

I originally upgraded from a good FC2 to FC3T3 and it didn't work.  I am
not going to repeat that process to find if the bug is still there or if
the blacklist fixes it. 


> or
> b) Clean install FC3RC[3-5] or FC3 and confirm that the sound problem
> still exists.  Because if you didn't do either, then the bug is not
> confirmed.  The simple fact that your workaround actually works
> indicates that (unless you did (a) or (b) above), that maybe the problem
> *was* in fact resolved.  It's entirely possible that you had to
> implement the workaround because of a broken upgrade path that is not
> supported (FC2->FC3T3->FC3RC3->FC3).

I left it as an open bug.  The developer can check if a) snd-intel8x0m
needs to be blacklisted b) if the blacklisting occurs properly during
install.  It should be pretty straight forward to fix from here on in. 

> > <See quotes below to substantiate this.>
> 
>   They don't, really.  See my comments.
> 
> > The sound issue never had anything to do with being the result of an
> > upgrade.  The advice to upgrade was crap.  As far as I am concerned,
> > issues resulting from upgrades should be taken just as seriously as
> > issues from fresh installs.
> 
>   Possibly, but if you are expecting upgrades *from* any test releases
> or release candidates to be taken seriously _if they cannot be or *are
> not* reproduced with clean installs *or* upgrades from previous official
> releases_, then absolutely not.

When packages are updated, they are updated.  Whether the original
package was version 0 or version 23 shouldn't matter.  This business of
saying that the upgrade process from certain versions won't fix bugs is
ludicrous.  I'll bet I could install FC3T1 and upgrade to FC3 final and
have a perfectly working system  If I had time I would do it just to
prove the point. 


>   I also think it behooves you to accept the fact that sometimes a
> proper bugfix for an upgrade problem is simply to release-note it ...
> explain to users what the problem is with upgrade and how to fix it ...
> if it's a simple fix, but not so simple to fix in the installer (or
> wasn't fixed due to lack of time).

That doesn't behoove me AT ALL.  I'd would have loved someone to tell me
there was a simple fix for this in the first place.  Did you notice that
I posted to the list several times about this issue before I
upgraded/reinstalled and also tested 2 installs before reporting it as a
bug.  I understand that first releases aren't going to be perfect and
that it will take a while until people find and fix all the bugs.  WHAT
I DONT LIKE IS PEOPLE BLAMING BUGS ON THE UPGRADE.

Read my lips: UPGRADES ARE NOT AN EXCUSE FOR BUGS.  BUGS ARE NOT FIXED
BY FRESH INSTALLS.


> > I am not demanding a fix for anything.  The ONLY point I wish to make is
> > that the advice "Please reinstall fresh" NOT be given when someone has a
> > problem.  In 95% of the cases whether the install was done as a fresh or
> > upgrade makes no difference. 
> 
>   Agreed.  However, *during* a testing cycle your system just may get
> b0rked by a rogue rpm (like my rpm-without-file-conflicts example) in a
> test/rc release or a rawhide rpm at which point that may be the only
> viable option.  If you can't accept that, then don't test.

It might get broken, but the next update to that package should fix it
again.

> > For those doubting my experience, here are a few quotes from threads on
> > the topic:
> > 
> > "Upgrading to FC3t2 was not the best move now. I would suggest (to save
> > you time) just reinstall (you don't want to upgrade from where youre)
> > next week when FC3 final is released, you shouldn't have that
> > problem anymore."   Oct 27.
> 
>   The first sentence here, I'm not sure about, but IIRC, FC3T2 was
> seriously b0rked so in this specific case, it actually might have made
> sense.  But the second part is clearly reiterating what I've said over
> and over: you can't expect to upgrade *from* a test release and have
> things be all hunky dory.  They might be, but consider yourself lucky if
> that happens.

You and I seriously disagree on that point. 


> > "A problem similar to this happened in the middle of testing between ine
> > test FC3 versions. If you read the archives for the Test list youill see
> > 2 email posts about folks not being able to get sound output.
> > This has been fixed. This sounds like the same issue. He might need to
> > just upgrade his alsa libs and utils. But upgrading in FC3 is a mess ,
> > esspecially starting from test 2. I would advise him to try one of the
> > RC builds instead and then look into it."
> 
>   All I get from this is that upgrades were, in fact, broken for a while
> in the FC3 testing cycle.  

What do you mean by that ?  I did several upgrades and they all worked. 

> So in order to test *other* stuff, it was
> better to just clean install and wait for the upgrade problems to be
> fixed in the RC releases.  What this seems to say is that the sound
> problem was fixed before the upgrade problems. 


NO !  THE SOUND BUG IS NOT FIXED YET, EVEN NOW.  Someone gave me a work
around, but the next person to install with the same hardware is going
to have the same problem. 


>  In other words it was
> likely a anaconda bug, not really a sound a bug.

ABSOLUTELY NOT !  My fresh install of FC3RC3 proved it was NOT an
anaconda bug as in something didn't install right. 

> > "If you do a fresh install you will be fine. Try RC2."
> 
> See above.  This sometimes makes sense, especially when upgrades are
> broken mid-test cycle.

UUGGGGHHHH.... I didn't have any problems with upgrades.  Upgrades
worked fine. 



> > To summarize:
> > 
> > a) telling people they have a problem because they've upgraded rather
> > than installed from fresh is probably crap.
> 
>   *FROM* test releases, it is absolutely not crap.
> 
> > b) reinstalling fresh probably won't fix a bug.
> 
>   You never know until you try, and unless others have corroborated the
> problem you have by doing clean installs or upgrades from official
> releases, then it's actually likely.
> 
> > c) overall I am very happy with FC3 and its level of bugs and the speed
> > with which they are fixed.
> 
>   Good to hear.  Me too!  :-)
> 
> -- 
> -Paul Iadonisi
>  Senior System Administrator
>  Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist
>  Ever see a penguin fly?  --  Try Linux.
>  GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets
> 
-- 
Kim Lux (Mr.)  Diesel Research Inc