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Re: Issues with the Live CD requirement for separate /boot

On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 05:35:02PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:

> On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 19:23 -0400, Scott Robbins wrote:
> > Judging from the forums, the fact that the Live CD requires an ext3
> > /boot and ext4 / is catching a lot of people by surprise. 
> > 
> > Is there any chance of some mention of it on the main page's download
> > section?
> > 
> > While it may be in the release notes and/or FAQ, many people are simply
> > distro hoppers who see there's a new version mentioned on slashdot or
> > distrowatch, and will simply download the live CD, as it's smaller, and
> > run into the issue.  

> > I've put a sticky up on the forum, but of course, by the time they get
> > there, they've usually already been caught.  :)  
> > 
> > My own selfish concern is that I don't want to have to type a hundred
> > times on the forum, "Please see the sticky in the installation section."

> We can't really start documenting things like this on the download
> pages. It's not the appropriate place, and it would just never end. We
> rather need to do a better job of getting people to read the appropriate
> places - the release notes and the common bugs pages - and 'we' in that
> context includes those of us who help others in the forums :)
> Ideally it would be best to direct people to the appropriate bit of the
> release notes:
> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f11/en-US/sect-Release_Notes-File_Systems.html

They'll miss it.  Even if they get that far through the release notes,
it has to boldly state--you CAN'T INSTALL THE LIVE CD ON ONE PARTITION. 

Fedora, like many others, has begun aiming very strongly at the sort of
person who is willing to sacrifice control for convenience.  ArchLinux,
the BSDs, Gentoo....the sort of people who do take time to read docs
before upgrading tend to go for that sort of distribution.  

Not that one is better than the other, but in trying to make it a click
and click and you're done distribution, you're going to get the click
and click wanting people.   

For example, Ubuntu, realizing their audience, has a little explanation
by each possible download, telling people what they will probably want
and highlighting the possible surprises, such as the server edition not
having a GUI.   They're not perfect either of course, it's just that
certain, this is definitely going to bite many people type things should
probably be mentioned in an obvious place. 

> rather than a forum sticky, but sadly that note is a bit...lacking :\.
> It's very short and doesn't describe things very well. But in an ideal
> world, that's how it should work. The more you direct people to release
> notes, the more it becomes a habit to read them.

Well, the sticky is even shorter, but written for the folks who are
complaining.  :)   It's really more an advocacy thing than a technical
thing--and as mentioned previously, my whole interest in it is
completely selfish--I don't use the live CD's and didn't even know about

As for directing people to read the release notes--this is almost a
customer service type thing--the person is having problems, and saying
you should have read the notes is just going to further aggravate them.

"I have a problem.  Your product doesn't work."  "Oh, that's YOUR
fault."    MS and Apple can probably get away with it, but...

In a perfect world, sure, they should read the release notes, but when
you have a distribution that is aimed at ease of use it attracts a
different type of user. 

While I realize you, Rahul and others do a tremendous job documenting
and interacting with the community, keep in mind that as Fedora and
company become easier to use, the community is gradually changing too.  

The days of a one line reply to such a complaint on the forums of, RTFM,
have, for better or worse,  become a thing of the past.  

It's not necessarily bad advice much of the time.  :)

Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
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 Joyce: But maybe, we could spend some time together soon? Some night
when I'm not being held hostage by a raving psychotic.

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