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Re: German translation of system-config-firewall



2009/9/23 mr R.E. van der Luit <zuma xs4all nl>:
> Op woensdag 23-09-2009 om 13:33 uur [tijdzone +0200], schreef Yaakov
> Nemoy:
>> 2009/9/22 Thomas Woerner <twoerner redhat com>:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > as the maintainer of system-config-firewall, I have ongoing problems with
>> > german translations in this tool.
>> >
>> > In german there is no matching word for "trusted". The translation
>> > "vertraut" means "familiar" or "close", but not "trusted"! In the german
>> > language we are using "Trusted Computing" as a fixed term, because you can
>> > not have a short term explaining it correctly. Therefore I am also using
>> > "trusted" for services and interfaces.
>> >
>> > Every few weeks some translators are replacing the word "trusted" with
>> > "vertraut". Can you please stop doing this?
>> >
>> > I would appreciate if you are changing all occurrences of "vertraut" back to
>> > "trusted".
>>
>> In dutch we also use vertrouwde, which more or less means the same thing.
>>
>> As a linguistic note, certain words are formed based on latin roots in
>> english to create a new meaning when a word is needed. For example,
>> the word 'translate' is composed of two parts, which both imply
>> movement. The two parts have nothing to do with converting a text from
>> one language to another, and if you know the etymology, translate
>> sounds as akward as using vertraut to mean trusted.  Nevertheless, you
>> literally translate the word translate in german, to übersetzen.
>> (There is a gramatical shift depending on the meaning, but i'm
>> skipping that for now.) (In Dutch, you would say vertalen, which is
>> like saying 'versprachen' in German, which doesn't exist.)
>>
>> Vertraut and Vertrouwde are the best literal translations, taking into
>> account the word stem and the grammatical usage (hence the ver-
>> prefix). It may sound akward, but at one point, the word television
>> sounded just as akward in English. It's equally akward switching to
>> 'fernsehen', but Germans use that word without taking too much into
>> account. Your kids will have no problems with the word vertraut, just
>> like your grandparents were scratching their heads at this silly word
>> 'fernsehen' at some point.
>>
>> -Yaakov
>>
>
> So what you basically are saying, Yaakov, is that we have to create our
> own new meaning of trusted in our own language, just as 'trusted' has
> become in english. However, the dutch word 'vertrouwd' has a very strong
> own meaning, and is certainly not to be bend to the desired meaning.
>
> I have had the same discussion about the dutch translation of the word
> 'untrusted'. Both words really have nothing to do with trust, it is just
> an unique ict-way to say that the status and origin of i.e. a connection
> is known or not. Untrusted doesnt mean 'niet vertrouwd' and it never
> will, trusted in this sense doesnt mean 'vertrouwd' and it never will.
>
> I prefer to leave the word 'trusted' as it is when i translate, and hope
> that we dutch shall adopt that word -with the right meaning- just as we
> adopted many words from foreign languages before (like computer :P)

What i'm saying is that both are 'correct' for certain values of
correct. Language semantics change all the time.

FWIW, a computer is a machine that computes, just like a rekner or a
rechner is a machine that 'reknen' or 'rechnen'. A computer used to be
a human being, even in the English language. I heard the word Rechner
used alot in German, but rekner in dutch strictly refers to a
calculating device or program.

In this particular case, the network devices are not just trusted, but
with a certain sense of familiarity, whereas Trusted Computing is a
buzzword. Perhaps we need to evaluate when vertrouwde is correct, and
when it isn't.

I'm not a native Dutch speaker, but perhaps toevertrouwde would be a
better word, or does it have too many financial considerations?

-Yaakov


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