meeting minutes from last night

[Máirín Duffy]

Asgeir Frimannsson wrote:
> Overwhelming the user is my main concern, yes. Using the extra 200 px for an 
> application-based menu/toolbox/help-view, rather than cramming it in the 
> remaining 80%, would be much more favorable than 'wasting' it on a sub-optimal 
> global navigation.

You know, this all sounds well and good, but means absolutely nothing 
without user feedback and testing of the specific designs we are 
discussing. Of which we have nothing to back either of our claims as 
mentioned earlier.

>> You wouldn't worry more about having 8 tabs horizontally across the top,
>> their German translations making the last two or three tabs scroll
>> horizotnally or jump down the next row? I don't think i18n is really a
>> good justification for your stance here.
> 
> That depends on how dominant this menu is on the page. To me, a global 
> navigation on a site like fpo should be clearly visible, but also easily 
> 'ignorable' when working within a specific application. For example, google.com 
> has 12 Items in its' global menu (7 navigation, 5 other) when logged in, and 
> is localised in many languages, including German (which naturally takes more 
> space). 

The Google.com bar you mention is for global naviation between separate 
Google.com applications, not for navigation within a single application.

Remember that this navigation bar is not meant for global navigation 
between sites or even between separate applications, as I said before it 
is for navigation within a single application. I know quite well the 
arguments against global navigation and I also do not think they apply 
here as this is not a global navigation bar. To navigation between 
various Fedora applications and sites it's been proposed to have a 
customizable, very small bar (~40px tall) at the top or even bottom of 
the screen to point to other applications very much in the style of the 
Google.com bar you mentioned.
> 
> If the target is a site where the global navigation is a dominant element of 
> the page, then yes, I see your point, and having these tabs horizontally 
> wouldn't be feasible. But if the target is a Fedora themed 'frame' for 
> applications to inherit, with a non-intrusive global navigation, then I think 
> the proposal is a bit off target, and a smaller horizontal global navigation 
> would be a better option. That's my 2 cents.

I think you've made an incorrect assumption about how the navigation bar 
is meant to be used. It's not global navigation, as I mentioned earlier 
in the thread it's for various areas within a single application. There 
is no global naviation in the mockups I've posted.

Re your 2 cents, you seem extremely interested in this. Would you mind 
making some mockups and designs as alternative proposals? I think that 
might be a lot more helpful than a long mailing list thread. I've spent 
the past month or so making mine. Can you invest that kind of time into 
this project? Because we are always looking for new websites team 
contributors. Our meetings are every Monday evening Eastern time, 
depending on the week 4 pm ET (next week) or 6 PM et (week after... it 
alternates)

I am happy that we are having discussions about the design on the list 
but at the same time I have seen time and time again discussions like 
this to put a destructive stop to a project making forward progress, and 
I would prefer to see this project get to the first major milestone and 
improve it from that point based on actual user feedback rather than 
just talk about design decisions that were made two months ago because I 
think that's a better way to make sure that this project doesn't get 
abandoned.

~m