Fedora bug submitting process

[Ricky Zhou]

Hey, Jon and I had a great conversation (log below) about how confusing
submitting a bug to Fedora can be.  There are a ton of great points here
about some of the useless/confusing fields that get presented. 

I'm not sure what options we have for improving this, whether it's
making a friendly, stripped down page for bug submission (which won't
help the situation with the bug pages themselves, unfortunately), or
maybe having a simplified, step-by-step bug submission form like GNOME
has (http://bugzilla.gnome.org/simple-bug-guide.cgi), but this area
definitely needs our attention - bug reporting is one of the easiest
ways to make the jump from Fedora users to Fedora contributors, which is
very important :-)

01:21 < mccann> hey ricky
01:42 < ricky> mccann: Hey
01:42 < mccann> ricky: hey again :)
01:43 < mccann> ricky: is there anyone thinking about or working on making a separate bugzilla for fedora?
01:43 < ricky> No, thankfully :-)  Running a bugzilla is *painful*
01:44 < ricky> Luckily, Red Hat has people dedicated to running their bugzilla, so we're very happy to be able to use that :-)
01:46 < mccann> well many of us are not so happy
01:46 < mccann> besides the reasons you gave it doesn't make much sense to share them
01:47 < ricky> Wellll, it is very nice to share bugs with RHEL as well
01:47 < ricky> For example, a lot of times, security/other bugs that get reported against Fedora/RHEL apply to upstream/downstream as well
01:48 < mccann> linking bugs sure
01:49 < mccann> but fedora and rhel have dramatically different audiences
01:49 < mccann> and should be designed as such
01:49 < mccann> currently red hat bugzilla is completely inappropriate for fedora
01:49 < ricky> In what places?
01:49 < mccann> in everything
01:49 < mccann> the design
01:50 < mccann> it is just targeting the wrong audience
01:50  * ricky hates the slowness for example, but that's my biggest complaint
01:52 -!- daMaestro [n=jon at fedora/damaestro] has joined #fedora-websites
01:55 < ricky> Are there specific pages that are particularly wrongly targetted?
01:56 < ricky> Like the individual bug pages, or the bug submission page?
01:56 < ricky> Oh, and my second biggest complaint is the poor integration with FAS, which we unfortunately have to live with :-(
01:57 < ricky> One thing that we can do with the new bug page is design a better interface to that
02:01 < mccann> the new bug workflow is horrific
02:01 < mccann> scares me
02:02 < mccann> bug yeah I think the FAS thing is a problem too
02:02 < mccann> we should be integrating with koji and stuff too right?
02:02 < ricky> Yeah.  Of all the problems, the FAS one is the most hopeless one
02:02 < mccann> stuff that launchpad does maybe
02:02 < ricky> In what ways could it interface with koji?
02:02 < mccann> or the simplicity of kwestie
02:03 < ricky> And what are the main confusing parts in the new bug page?
02:03 < mccann> ricky: the whole new bug workflow is bad not just the page
02:03  * ricky is looking at it now :-)
02:03 < mccann> choosing Fedora vs. Red Hat is bad
02:03  * mccann pulls it up
02:03 < ricky> The first impression is that you have to click through two screens to get to the place that 90% of Fedora bugzilla users probably want to go
02:04 < mccann> first of all https://bugzilla.redhat.com/ is strange
02:04 < mccann> since I was looking for fedora and i got this
02:04 < mccann> makes me do a double take
02:04 < ricky> Yeah, the front page looks totally Red Hat/RHEL-centric
02:05 < mccann> if I manage to get past that... and many may not
02:05 < ricky> It might be good to have common links on the front page
02:05 < ricky> For example, one that goes directly to reporting bugs in RHEL, Fedora, and EPEL
02:05 < mccann> well for me I'd prefer to have a different account for my fedora bugs and my rhel bugs
02:05 < mccann> but i'll be specific about the new bug workflow for now
02:05 < mccann> i clicked new
02:06 < ricky> Darn, mizmo isn't around - she'd be the first person I'd want to be here for a discussion like this :-)
02:06 < mccann> what does "All:  	 Show all products" mean?
02:06 < ricky> Wow, I had never clicked that link before
02:06 < mccann> its the first one :)
02:06 < ricky> I wasn't aware that jboss stuff was here as well
02:06 < mccann> and other?  wtf
02:07 < mccann> i want fedora
02:07 < mccann> ok I click Fedora (duh)
02:07 < mccann> ok now what is all this stuff
02:07 < ricky> OK, so that's annoying/useless, but hopefully not too confusing yet
02:07 < mccann> i have another list
02:07 < ricky> Yeah - if anything, I'd emphasize Fedora/EPEL more
02:07 < mccann> annoying is worse than confusing
02:07 < ricky> I'd rename "Fedora EPEL" to "EPEL" to reduce confusion there
02:07 < mccann> point is that at every turn people will flee
02:08 < ricky> Fedora Hosted Projects needs to die
02:08 < ricky> I don't even know what Fedora Management Console is
02:08 < mccann> creating a bug MUST be one click from the home screen
02:08 < ricky> And documentation/localization should stay but be deemphasized
02:08 < ricky> Agreed - that's a good requirement to have
02:08 < ricky> Two clicks to downloading Fedora was one of our requirements when designing the get-fedora page
02:09 < mccann> and only require the minimum but allow me to add what I can
02:09 < mccann> anyway so at that screen I click "Fedora" (again)
02:09 < ricky> OK, so I think we have a lot of good comments so far - onto the next step - click Fedora again, wait a minute for the gian list to show up
02:09 < mccann> and now I wait a long time :)
02:09 < ricky> One thing that I think can be confusing to a lot of people is the terminology
02:10 < ricky> Stuff like "Product" and "Component" aren't that obvious to people
02:10 < ricky> s/aren't/isn't
02:10 < mccann> and now the screen of doom
02:10  * ricky would care about packages, not components
02:11 < mccann> big picture: most of this stuff is pointless or i have no idea what it is (even for me) and it gives me no idea what it important or required
02:11 < ricky> OK, let's go through the fields one by one
02:11 < mccann> if i just go down to the description and then submit it - i'll get an error
02:11 < mccann> the point is not the fields themselves necessarily
02:11 < ricky> The sheer number of them?
02:11 < mccann> the point is that I should just enter what I'm seeing and that should be enough
02:12 < ricky> I can see where you're coming from with that - but I think the line needs to be drawn at selecting a component, at least
02:13 < ricky> The OS field is particularly useless here :-)
02:13 < mccann> well what if I don't know the component?
02:13 < ricky> As is target milestone
02:13 < mccann> i design the OS and many times I don't know what is causing the specific problem
02:13 < ricky> Hm.
02:14 < mccann> i go to the emergency room and I don't diagnose myself
02:14 < mccann> i tell them my leg hurts
02:14 < mccann> doctor tells me that it isn't my leg it is shoes that are the problem
02:14 < ricky> Maybe there needs to be a catchall component if the users don't know.  Not sure how such a thing is implemented in bugzilla or if the triaging team has the ability to take on a lot of that type of bug
02:15 < mccann> so let's assume for a moment that i want a top to bottom workflow
02:15 < mccann> let's go down in order
02:15 < mccann> product fedora - um yeah i guess
02:15 < mccann> component: dunno
02:15 < mccann> reporter: ?
02:16 < mccann> me of course
02:16 < mccann> and why is that over to the right
02:16 < mccann> version
02:16 < mccann> of what?
02:16 < mccann> of the component?
02:16 < ricky> Good, I didn't think of that ambiguity before
02:16 < mccann> the next 5 dropdowns?  pointless
02:17 < ricky> Agreed
02:17 < mccann> initial state? wtf
02:17 < ricky> Most people don't care who it's assigned to or CCed to either
02:17 < mccann> and some weird flags boxes over to the right
02:17 < mccann> what is that
02:17 < ricky> And the flags are mostly of interest to triagers, maintainers and other fedora contributors
02:17 < mccann> for some admin i guess
02:18 < ricky> The time tracking is completely unused as far as I know
02:18 < mccann> i've never used them
02:18 < mccann> alias seems like it better added later
02:18 < mccann> if ever
02:18 < mccann> what is url for?
02:18 < mccann> i have no idea
02:18 < ricky> I think I'd prefer if all of the extra stuff were at the bottom of the page, maybe even below the submit button, or hidden behind some advanced options button
02:19 < mccann> what is whiteboard for?  i have no idea
02:19 < ricky> So summary, description, and attachment are the only useful ones there at all
02:19 < mccann> Customer Facing ?
02:19 < ricky> Yeah
02:20 < mccann> and if i somehow skip summary it gives me a nasty error message
02:20 < mccann> but it doesn't tell me summary is required
02:20 < ricky> Do you think this kind of confusion also applies to the bug pages themselves (like https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1), or not so much?
02:20 < mccann> and those groups.  i've never touched them
02:21 < mccann> not done here - one sec :)
02:21 < ricky> Heh, take your time, this is good stuff :-)
02:21 < mccann> and "Commit" ?!
02:21 < mccann> this isn't an insane asylum or is it?
02:21 < ricky> Yeah, that's is pretty bad
02:21 < ricky> **that
02:21 < mccann> and commit has the same "weight" / importance as "remember template"
02:22 < mccann> actually less
02:22 < mccann> since it is smaller and over to the left
02:22 < mccann> and the spacing on the page is just all wrong
02:22 < mccann> and commit is hidden down under the "heading" Add External Bug:
02:22 < ricky> Oh yeah.
02:23 < mccann> so again the entire workflow should be just (maybe) summary, and description and "Submit bug report"
02:23 < mccann> and that should all be one click from the home page
02:23 < mccann> and maybe add attachment if i have one
02:24 < mccann> or list component if i can tell
02:24 < mccann> and maybe even automatically look for similar bugs
02:24 < mccann> to prevent needless dups
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02:26 < mccann> if we had a better main page it could even show quick summary of what was filed or fixed today
02:26 < mccann> lots of cool stuff
02:26 < ricky> Ugh, I got dropped from wireless, sorry
02:27 < ricky> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/simple-bug-guide.cgi is a decent thing to compare against if you have an account there
02:27 < ricky> Still a bunch of steps, but at least clearly labeled (and mostly only the important ones)
02:28 < mccann> well gnome has a number of nice things in theirs
02:28 < mccann> but i think they are working on moving over to a new version now
02:28 < mccann> so it is on hold
02:28 < ricky> Do you know if it's GNOME patches to it, or if it's functionality we could get as well?
02:28 < mccann> both I think
02:28 < ricky> Ah
02:29 < mccann> i'll try to check on the update tomorrow
02:29 < mccann> anyway for the bug status page...
02:29 < ricky> :-)
02:29 < mccann> say  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=514246 for example
02:29 < mccann> it is pretty bad too
02:29 < ricky> Yeah, it's like always looking at a half-filled form
02:30 < mccann> Conditional NAK?
02:30 < ricky> Heh, that I don't see :-)
02:30 < mccann> PM Score: 	?
02:31 < mccann> oh this may be rhel things sneaking in for me
02:31 < ricky> Hehe
02:31 < mccann> but they shouldn't
02:31 < mccann> again the time reporting stuff
02:31 -!- onekopaka is now known as onekopaka_away
02:32 < mccann> anyway i'll ask around tomorrow about the gnome bugzilla move
02:32 < mccann> thanks for listening to my rants
02:32 < mccann> :)
02:32 < ricky> Mind if I post this entire conversation to fedora-websites-list?
02:32 < mccann> did I say anything too mean?
02:33 < ricky> Nah :-)  Everythings, very true definitely
02:33 < mccann> ok sure then :)
02:33 < ricky> Cool, thanks - hopefully this will start up some brainstorming
02:33 < mccann> cool.  again I'll check back with some info tomorrow hopefully
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