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Meeting Log - 2009-08-21



17:00 < ricky> #startmeeting Fedora Websites
17:00 < zodbot> Meeting started Fri Aug 21 17:00:23 2009 UTC.  The chair is ricky. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00 < zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00 -!- zodbot changed the topic of #fedora-websites to:  (Meeting topic: Fedora Websites)
17:00 < ricky> #topic Who's here?
17:00 -!- zodbot changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Who's here? (Meeting topic: Fedora Websites)
17:00  * mchua is here!
17:00  * ricky 
17:00  * hiemanshu is here
17:00 < ricky> sijis, nb_, tmz, anybody else who's interested: ping
17:00 < hiemanshu> sijis, onekopaka_away, nb ping
17:00 < ricky> Darn, I always manage to forget some
17:01 < hiemanshu> ricky, your getting better at it :P
17:02 < ricky> OK then
17:02 < ricky> #topic {get,spins}.fedoraproject.org
17:02 -!- zodbot changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: {get,spins}.fedoraproject.org (Meeting topic: Fedora Websites)
17:02 < ricky> So back to what we were discussing
17:03  * hiemanshu was supposed to work on get.fp.o
17:03 < hiemanshu> i havent got much time off this week
17:03 < ricky> Unfortunately, we can't sit tight and just take feedback until the week of the F12 release :-/
17:04 -!- rdieter [n=rdieter sting unl edu] has joined #fedora-websites
17:04 < ricky> I think the "allocate X time for feedback" went a bit out of hand
17:04 < mchua> hey, rdieter!
17:04 < mchua> ricky: you mean the f-a-b discussion?
17:04 < ricky> Yeah
17:05 < mchua> ricky: sorry, I've been out of touch with websites lately and don't know what the timeline for both redesigns looks like... how is the current discussion affecting that timeline?
17:05 < ricky> I think the comments focus more on get.fp.o than spins.fp.o though, so I think we should talk with mizmo to get a close-to-final set of mockups and start working on HTML/CSS for that part
17:05 < hiemanshu> ricky, she says the current ones are close to final
17:06 < ricky> mchua: We basically have two months from now to have spins.fp.o finished
17:06 < hiemanshu> two months is pretty less from what i see
17:06 < ricky> We may be able to stretch that date if we accept having fewer translations for release and having many of them come in after the release
17:07 < mchua> ricky: whoa, that's tight. what's the wiki page (or wherever) with dates?
17:07  * mchua hunts
17:07 < ricky> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-web-tasks.html
17:08 < mchua> oh - I hadn't realized that get and spins were there, is that "Update Website Content"?
17:08 < ricky> The nice thing about working on spins.fp.o is that it's a requirement for get.fp.o and not the other way around
17:08 < ricky> Well...  the 2 months I gave were from now until the string freeze
17:08 < ricky> There's some flexible time between the two for things like testing
17:09  * sijis is here.
17:09 < mchua> ricky: if this isn't the time for me to ask questions about the redesign schedule, I can ask them later, but it is something I'm confused about from the perspective of figuring out how marketing can help out with the process.
17:10 < ricky> It's good to get everybody up to date on dates/requiremets
17:10 < ricky> **requirements
17:11 < ricky> So is there anything else anybody wants to discuss on this?
17:11  * hiemanshu leaves
17:11 < hiemanshu> sorry guys
17:11  * mchua waves at hiemanshu 
17:11 < hiemanshu> I need to leave
17:11 < ricky> mchua: If you see mizmo, mind asking her if we can start HTMLifying the latest set of spins mockups?
17:11 < ricky> hiemanshu: See you later, thanks for coming
17:11 < hiemanshu> Bye ricky
17:11 < hiemanshu> and sorry
17:11 -!- hiemanshu is now known as hiemanshu|AFK
17:11 < mchua> ricky: don't think she's in the office today, so might want to just send an email to list and cc her
17:11 < ricky> No worries
17:12 < ricky> Cool, will do
17:12 < mchua> ricky: I had a few questions on the get/spins redesign, I can splurt them all out here and you can tell me which ones are out of scope for this meeting.
17:12 < ricky> Feel free to splurt away
17:12 < mchua> 1. what's the schedule like - what are the milestones for various deliverables, and who's responsible and accountable for hitting them?
17:13 < ricky> Maybe we need to get more specific, but right now, all I have is: get everything done by 2009-10-20
17:13 < mchua> 2. where is the canonical place for the design discussion currently on f-a-b to be held? (f-a-b seems like a strange place to have that conversation, maybe here or the design list might be a better choice... but that convo has a lot of inertia)
17:13 < mchua> ricky: more specific please :)
17:13 < ricky> That includes spins and get-fedora, parts of which can hopefully be done in parallel
17:13 < mchua> ricky: basically, as someone who hasn't been deeply involved in the discussions so far, but who is interested in helping out, it's hard for me to find out what is going on and what needs to be done and what opportunities there are to help.
17:13 < ricky> But I don't see any way to split the task up better - "done" means having HTML and CSS in a git repo + the setup in infrastructure to pull/build from it
17:14 < sijis> let me get this straight: 1009/10/12 we are suppose to have spins/get completed for f12 release?
17:14 < mchua> ricky: and since I am an engineer, I'm phrasing this as "where's the deliverables schedule?"
17:14 < ricky> What needs to be done is - a final mockup PNG needs to be become an HTML/CSS page
17:14 < ricky> That's pretty much the only deliverable
17:15 < ricky> There are some other todo items:
17:15 < mchua> ricky: hm, maybe we can work on trying to break that down and spec it out a bit more.
17:15 < ricky> Contact current spins creators, find out what info they need
17:15 < mchua> (perhaps after the meeting)
17:15 < mchua> ricky: #-action logging goodness?
17:16 < ricky> #action Design a format for them to push changes that are valid HTML - some options are giving them web membership or pulling from a file on fedorapeople.org
17:16 < ricky> #action Contact current spins creators, find out what info they need on the pages
17:17 < ricky> I'm leaning towards either the first or a "file ticket and we make the change" thing for the push method, since pulling from a random file makes it too easy to make an HTML mistake and kill the build script
17:17 < ricky> This is slightly dependent on what type of information we get on the site though.
17:17 < ricky> If it's more cookie-cutter, we can have them fill in text file that we parse the info out of
17:17 < sijis> we'd also need to verify mizmo's mockup is final.
17:18 < ricky> #action Get a final mockup and start HTMLizing
17:18 < ricky> 2) f-a-b is the canonical place - that was what the board decided, for whatever reason
17:19 < ricky> So that's why it started out there - this kind of discussion has happened on fedora-websites-list in the past as well
17:19 < sijis> what's f-a-b again?
17:19 < ricky> fedora-advisory-board
17:19 < mchua> fedora advisory board
17:19 < sijis> i'm seeing double. :)
17:19 < mchua> ricky: yeah, the "for whatever reason" is the part I'm trying to find out, since several people seem to be curious about the history of that
17:19 < ricky> Heh, who's curious about that?
17:19 < mchua> found the meeting logs and they work to satisfy my curiosity, though
17:20 < mchua> ricky: Sho_ on #fedora-kde, most recently
17:20 < ricky> I think the logic is that the goal of the page is decided by the board, and so dispute about that goal goes there
17:20 < mchua> ricky: oh, 3. is there a project page for the get/spins redesign? (are we using the stuff on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites#Projects)?
17:20 < ricky> There are questions of the "what is Fedora" and "who is our target audience" type which have historically been board questions
17:21 < sijis> i do remember it being the board's primary goal to have spins/get done first.
17:21 < sijis> (or at least that was the impression i got)
17:21 < ricky> mchua: Not that I know of - would having it on paper help?
17:22 < mchua> ricky: tremendously.
17:22 < ricky> Is the info from above enough to populate such a page?
17:22 < mchua> ricky: Yes.
17:22 < mchua> ricky: well, to start. :)
17:23 < mchua> ricky: I should be able to take a first crack at it... /me checks to-do list for the week to see what else is on plate
17:23 < ricky> Let me now if you need more - now's a good time
17:23 < mchua> w00t, I can do it.
17:23 < sijis> so are we putting the progress on that wiki page?
17:23 < mchua> #action mchua to take a first crack at getting {get, join}.fp.o project pages + schedules + etc. together
17:23 < sijis> or next steps, what's needed to be done, etc?
17:24 < mchua> sijis: yes.
17:24 < mchua> my plan is to take a first pass and then come back here and have you all tell me how wrong I am ;)
17:24 < mchua> and poelcat too
17:25  * ricky wonders if any board people are around
17:25 < ricky> One question for people on all sides of the get-fedora argument...
17:25 < ricky> How long can discussion go on for before a new get-fedora for F12 becomes an impossibility?
17:26 < mchua> ricky: I think that's something that websites-from-the-infra side would have to answer, actualy.
17:26 < mchua> er, actually.
17:26  * mchua no typey good today.
17:26 < mchua> ricky: what's the freeze date by which everything in its final form *must* be uploaded to... where?
17:26 < ricky> Darn, I was hoping the board would handle the hard questions :-)
17:26 < sijis> haah.
17:27 < ricky> I don't think the uploaded part is all that important, since that step is kind of a trivial one
17:27 < sijis> we should work on spins and get simultanously but focus mostly on spins if time gets too tight.
17:27 < ricky> The site (in a form that is ready for infra to put up) needs to be done by string freeze
17:28 < ricky> Then it needs to sit there and get translated (although non-string improvements can still be made)
17:28 < mchua> ricky: what makes it ready for infra to put up?
17:28 < mchua> ricky: when is string freeze?
17:28 -!- mizmo [n=duffy nat/redhat/x-amotditbznfenxdt] has joined #fedora-websites
17:28 < mchua> ricky: where will "done" be?
17:28 < mchua> hey mizmo!
17:29 < ricky> Woo, hi
17:29  * hiemanshu|AFK is back
17:29 -!- hiemanshu|AFK is now known as hiemanshu
17:29 < ricky> mchua: I'll try to answer that in a "what steps would I take" way:
17:29 < mizmo> hi mchua!
17:30 < mchua> ricky:  thanks :) and sorry for asking so many pedantic stupid questions, I'm trying to make sure I grok everything before attacking that project page task
17:30 < ricky> 1) Copy the website building boilerplate from the fedoraproject.org directory, make modifications to the script, etc. for spins.fp.o (might not need any)
17:30 < ricky> 2) Convert a mockup into HTML/CSS
17:30 < ricky> 3) Rip out the content and put them into pages
17:31 < ricky> The string freeze is 10/20, so that's easy to remember :-)
17:31 < ricky> #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-web-tasks.html
17:31 < ricky> mizmo: Hey, so some questions we had - the spins mockup pretty much ready for us to start converting into HTML/CSS?
17:31 < ricky> **is the
17:32 < mizmo> ricky: well.....
17:32 < mizmo> ricky: it still needs work, but that front page mockup is close
17:32  * ricky knows that a comments thread just popped up pretty late on f-a-b, but that seemed focused more on get.fp.o
17:32 < mizmo> i could make a quick update to it now,
17:32 < mizmo> but the main thing i want to do based on the feedback i got in my blog
17:32 < mizmo> is to put all the spins into two tabs
17:33 < mizmo> the default tab is 'by popularity' and sorts them in order of popularity listing out number of downloads this week
17:33 < mizmo> the second tab is 'Spins A-Z' to show them in alphabetical order
17:33 < ricky> #action Get an estimate of how many spins we will have for launch
17:33 < mizmo> it would be trivial to add that to the mockup
17:33 < mizmo> yeh a few of the spins in the mockup are bogus
17:33 < mizmo> art studio wont be ready for instance
17:33 < mizmo> (afaik anyway)
17:33 < ricky> No huge rush, actually - mchua made me realize that there are a few things we can be doing before we're ready for the HTMLifying part
17:34 < mizmo> ah okay
17:34 < ricky> OK - the other question is - how much time can we spend on getting get-fedora feedback before it becomes impossible to get it ready for F12?  :-(
17:34 < ricky> That could be a question for stickster_afk too
17:35 < mizmo> yeh
17:35 < mizmo> i think maybe what we say is
17:35 < mizmo> well first of all maybe in the future we should have scheduled 'get feedback' windows and once they're closed they're closed
17:36 < mizmo> now that we're getting a usability lab i think we should have time in the schedule to test the designs as well
17:36 < mizmo> for f12
17:36 < ricky> Coool @ the usability lab
17:36 < mizmo> i think we should say, we've opened up for feedback, we need to get something out, what we have is crap
17:36 < mizmo> this is our best try at making something better,
17:36 < mizmo> we'll schedule usability testing of it as soon as it comes out
17:36 < mizmo> and try to identify problems early
17:36 < mizmo> it sounds like mmcgrath may also be interested in generating metrics on it
17:37 < ricky> Sounds good
17:37 < mizmo> in an ideal world, of course, we'd have the design prototyped in html/css right now and be running usability tests on it and have room in the schedule to make fixes based on the test results before we went live but
17:37 < mizmo> it's not an ideal world :)
17:37 < ricky> Hehe
17:37 < mizmo> and as far as usability is concerned its never an ideal world lol
17:37 < ricky> We discussed dates a bit earlier
17:37  * mchua struggling to figure out how to put all this into a schedule
17:38 < ricky> The big one coming up right now is the string freeze on 10/20
17:38 < mchua> mizmo, ricky: get.fp.o and join.fp.o = two projects, or one?
17:38 < ricky> mchua: Two projects, I think I moved join.fp.o to f13 on trac
17:39 < ricky> So that's about 2 months from now
17:39 < ricky> Should we try to block that out a bit more now?
17:40  * ricky is afraid that he may become very unreliable with Fedora time once school starts :-/
17:40 < mchua> Yeah... back-figuring from the string freeze, all the phases mizmo just outlined, which ones are we still going to try to do properly, which ones are we going to try to do really quickly, which ones are we going to drop... and from that, when will the intervening dates be?
17:40 < hiemanshu> ricky, school?
17:40 < ricky> Yeah
17:40 < hiemanshu> ricky, how old are you?
17:40 < mchua> ricky: if things get tied into marketing's schedule, I can make sure they drive forward, though that's of limited use when the tasks in question are actually infra/design ones
17:41  * ricky is 19
17:41  * mchua runs to rescue burning bagel
17:41 < ricky> mchua: Oh yeah, we need to discuss what marketing has in mind as well
17:41  * hiemanshu is as old as ricky :)
17:41 < sijis> damn, i feel really old :)
17:42 < ricky> mizmo: Do you think spins.fp.o being done is a requisite for get.fp.o, or are they kind of parallel things?
17:42  * mchua now has bagel charcoal. *crunch* *grimace*
17:42 < mizmo> ricky: the board said that spins.fpo is a prerequisite for the redesign
17:43 < mizmo> mchua: lol crunch crunch
17:43 < mizmo> sijis: im 28 dont feel old :)
17:43 < mizmo> sijis: ricky is one of our young geniuses
17:43  * sijis is 29
17:43 < ricky> OK, so we'll concentrate on spins now
17:43 < sijis> mizmo: yeah, i can tell.
17:44 < ricky> #action Commence the fedora-web git work for the new spins site
17:44 < mizmo> i started mocking up the spins details pages but they are gonna be more complex than i origianlly thought
17:44 < hiemanshu> mizmo, so is there any update of get.fp.o mockup?
17:44 < mizmo> hiemanshu: not since the last post i made to planet fedora with it
17:44 < ricky> mizmo: Do you have a good idea of what info spins creators want on that page/how much flexibility we will give?
17:44 < hiemanshu> ricky, shall i start working on the HTML?
17:44 < sijis> so, whatever is desinged for spins, we will redesign *.fp.o following that?
17:45 < ricky> hiemanshu: I'm not 100% sure that there is something in a final state to convert to HTML yet.
17:45 < mizmo> ricky: i think for now they should be fairly rigid just so we can get them done
17:45 < mizmo> ricky: so they'd just be able to customize the description and what downloads are offered to start, and maybe have some subpages
17:45 < hiemanshu> ricky, mizmo says it close to final, so i think we can start
17:45 < mizmo> ricky: chitlesh right now has an electronic lab  page he uses
17:45 < mizmo> ricky: it has a LOT of custom content. i dont know if we want to support that right out the door
17:45 < ricky> OK
17:46 < mizmo> check it, see the sidebar on the left http://chitlesh.fedorapeople.org/FEL/
17:46 < ricky> Also, the skin for spins.fp.o - which one do you plan to use?
17:46 < mizmo> hmm
17:47 < sijis> so spins is like an intro about the actual spin. maybe we could add a 'visit their webpage' for more complete details, etc..
17:47 < ricky> Something close to the final planned one, or something closer to the  current one?  I guess the sidebar might affect how you design things a bit
17:47 < ricky> Well, and colors and everything else too :-)
17:47 < mizmo> i dont know, i think the new skin on the spins.fpo mockup could be easy enough to do. but this is all easy enough, it just adds up quickly
17:48 < mizmo> im not sure. i guess my gut feel would be use the current site template just so that get.fpo and the spins site match look & feel
17:48 < ricky> OK, that'll hopefully mean a tiny bit less frantic browser testing then
17:49 < mizmo> yeh
17:49 < ricky> OK, so let's try to estimate how long converting something like this to HTML/CSS will take
17:50 < hiemanshu> ricky, i would say anywhere between 3 days to 2 weeks per page (depending on the amount of time one can put in)
17:50 < ricky> Heh, you never know what infuriating CSS bug will cause that jump :-)
17:51 < mizmo> exactly
17:51 < mchua> is this the process? requirements gathering ---> design mockups -- > [[You Are Here! arrow]] --> gather feedback && metrics && usability testing  --> design mockups final --> convert to html/css --> onto infrastructure
17:51 < mizmo> mchua: well we can never gather metrics until the site goes live
17:51 < mchua> (and right now we're talking about how much time the "convert to html/css" part will take)
17:51 < hiemanshu> ricky, as i said depends on how much time you can put in :)
17:51 < ricky> Yeah
17:51 < mchua> mizmo: woops, should have been "determine metrics"
17:52 < mizmo> i also think that's a bit more idealized :) i think the way it will have to acually go down is
17:52 < mchua> mizmo: like your suggestion on f-a-b of finding our expected dl growth and comparing to actual to see how much the redesign affects things
17:52 < ricky> I think given a mockup of a couple of pages, I can get the buildscript and repo stuff in a 2-3 days at most if I can find the time.
17:52 < mizmo> requirements & determine metrics  => mockup design <=> gather feedback (we are here now and cycling between it and design) => implement HTML/CSS => Final => metric gathering & usability testing
17:53 < mizmo> er although we're doing the metric determination now while we gather feedback
17:53 < mchua> yup, that's why i reckoned the "you are here" arrow was where it is
17:54 < mchua> and that all those three things (metric determination, feedback gathering, maybe maybe usability testing) would be in parallel
17:54 < mizmo> well i think ideally we'd determine the metrics with the requirements
17:54 < mizmo> maybe
17:55 < ricky> OK, so as a very rough estimate, converting to HTML/CSS + the buildscript work might take 2-3 weeks total - does that sound good?
17:55 < ricky> (Maybe even less if we can get some large bursts of work in here)
17:55  * mchua votes 3 weeks, to make absolutely sure
17:55 < mizmo> sounds good, but hopeful lol
17:55 < ricky> Heh
17:55 < mizmo> id want you to be able to say 3-4 weeks
17:56 < mchua> in that case, I'd vote 4 weeks. :)
17:56  * mchua trying to nail down start/end dates for tasks, like poelstra did with the various F12 schedues.
17:56 < ricky> Will that work for you though?  I know you're probably loaded with release design stuff around onw
17:56 < sijis> i think 4 weeks is very resonable.
17:56 < hiemanshu> 4 weeks should be good
17:57 < mchua> mizmo: the process I put up there is totally idealistic, it's the "given infinite resources, woooo!" one, so we know exactly where we're having to squeeze/cut things for this time around.
17:57 -!- stickster_afk is now known as stickster
17:57 < mizmo> yeh
17:57 < ricky> So based on this, we'll want to start HTMLizing mockups on around Sept 29
17:58 < ricky> mizmo: So does that (+- a few days) give us a good idea of when we need to cut off the mockup + feedback cycle?
17:59 < mizmo> ricky: yeh i would say lets cut it off end of next week
17:59 < hiemanshu> ricky, i'd start we start 4 weeks from now, around 20th Sept
17:59 < sijis> and from now till then, what are we doing? ....
17:59 < ricky> OK, that'd work too as long as it's not too tight on design
17:59 < hiemanshu> ricky, we can keep an extra week for unseen bugs
17:59  * mchua pasting schedule so far here, one sec
17:59 < mchua> DONE: requirements gathering
17:59  * sijis steps away in for a bit.
17:59 < mchua> DONE: design mockups
17:59 < mchua> NOW - $date1 :  gather feedback && metrics && usability testing
17:59 < mchua> $date1 - $date2 :design mockups final
17:59 < mchua> sep 29 - oct 20: convert to html/css
17:59 < mchua> oct 20 : onto infrastructure
17:59 < ricky> Until then, we need to start work on the infrastructure side of things
17:59 < mchua> values for $date1 and $date2?
18:00 < hiemanshu> mchua, sept 20
18:00 < hiemanshu> for convert
18:00 < ricky> (As in preparing a spins.fedoraproject.org/ directory, working on the ability to get download metrics)
18:00 < mchua> hiemanshu: as an "ideally we'll start now," or a "if we haven't started by now, the universe explodes" date?
18:00 < ricky> mizmo: Oh, and just to be clear on this - the design will assume that we have a mapping from spin to # torrent downloads, right
18:00 < mchua> hiemanshu: one can always start tasks earlier if all dependencies have been met, I'm going for "we absolutely have to hit these dates" dates
18:00 < hiemanshu> mchua, Ideally we'll start now
18:01 < ricky> I think skvidal has already made that info easy to get for fcomm, so we should be able to take advantage of it as well
18:01 -!- poelcat [n=poelcat fedora/poelcat] has joined #fedora-websites
18:01 < mizmo> ricky: yep
18:01 < hiemanshu> mchua, but a closer looking date makes people think that we need to gear up to finish rest by that time
18:01 < mizmo> ricky: eg electronic lab would have x86_64 and an x86 torrents
18:02 < mizmo> because i think he does both
18:02 < ricky> OK, so I guess we'd store them separate as opposed to a sum then.
18:02 < mchua> hiemanshu: personally, I don't put padding into schedules to hurry folks up; the dates that things need to be done by are the dates that they should be listed, because otherwise folks think "oh, well, it's okay if we slip."
18:02 < ricky> OK, so we still have a number of things on the agenda, so any objections to moving on now?
18:03 < mizmo> ricky: he has non-torrent dls too http://chitlesh.fedorapeople.org/FEL/index.html
18:03 < hiemanshu> mchua, well from what i have seen so far, people usually tend to slip
18:03 < ricky> mizmo: Yow, some of that info will be harder for us to get.
18:03  * mchua can pick up the schedule design discussion here later, sure.
18:03 < hiemanshu> mchua, so keeping it up at 20th will make it slip by a week
18:03 < hiemanshu> so we start by 29th
18:03 < ricky> Same for the KDE spin
18:04 < ricky> OK, so let's cut this off for now and continue after the meeting if we still have more to discuss
18:04 < mchua> hiemanshu: if we know we're going to slip, then we should just put the latest date we can slip to as the actual deadline, because that's what deadlines are supposed to be (imo - ymmv... I'm not the one driving the schedule, just drafting it up today.)
18:04 < mchua> ricky: +1
18:04 < ricky> #topic Export Disclaimer
18:04 -!- zodbot changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Export Disclaimer (Meeting topic: Fedora Websites)
18:05 < ricky> This is just a quick update - sijis got a full get-fedora mockup with the disclaimer
18:05 < hiemanshu> mchua, after the meeting :)
18:05 < ricky> sijis: Do you have a link to that handy?
18:05 < sijis> no
18:05 -!- morpheuss [n=pawn unaffiliated/morpheuss] has joined #fedora-websites
18:05 < hiemanshu> ricky, was it in the list?
18:05 < sijis> sijis.fpeople.o
18:05 < ricky> Ah here it is: http://sijis.fedorapeople.org/get-fedora
18:05 -!- daMaestro [n=jon fedora/damaestro] has joined #fedora-websites
18:05 < mizmo> sijis: i poked around with the css for the export disclaimer this morning and honestly, i think it looks better the way you got it, with one nit
18:05 < mizmo> sijis: can we change how the show/hide works? the arrorw is small and kind of hard to targe
18:06 < mizmo> sijis: i was hoping maybe we could do something like this:
18:06 < ricky> hiemanshu: Not quite yet ^
18:06 < mizmo> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community/
18:06 < mizmo> if you scroll down, you see the planet bubbles
18:06 < ricky> hiemanshu: This will probably get pushed through a little faster than normal since it's legal askin for it
18:06 < mizmo> they have "Show more" with a little down arrow
18:06 < hiemanshu> ricky, yes
18:06 < mizmo> and then when you open them
18:06 < hiemanshu> sijis, well the down arrow should be probably gone
18:06 < mizmo> they say "hide full post content" with an up arrow - and the down arrow disappears
18:06 < ricky> Ooh, that looks nice
18:06 < hiemanshu> when its been pressed
18:07 < mizmo> so what i would suggest is
18:07 -!- hammergod_ [n=chat-Box 117 198 129 107] has joined #fedora-websites
18:07 < mizmo> "View export agreement" + down arrow
18:07 < mizmo> click that
18:07 < mizmo> then the view export agreement + down arrow disappear and at the bottom you have 'Hide export agreement' + up arrow
18:07 < mizmo> what do you think?
18:07 < hiemanshu> mizmo, +1
18:07 < hiemanshu> exactly what i was thinking of
18:07 < ricky> Sounds good to me - a link definitely seems easier to click
18:08 < mizmo> it'd match the mechanism we have on fedora community too which i think is good
18:08 < mizmo> consistency = yay
18:08 < mizmo> sijis: is that something you can do?
18:08 < sijis> ok. ill fix that
18:08 < mizmo> sijis: the ones on fedora community use jquery
18:08 < mizmo> sijis: im not sure what you're using for yours but i can get you the jquery script if you need it
18:08 < sijis> i can try :)
18:08 < mizmo> kk
18:08 < hiemanshu> sijis, you could kind of rips of the functions and add yours :)
18:08 < sijis> if u ca send thatbwould be great
18:08 < hiemanshu> rip*
18:09 < mizmo> sijis: sure thing, ill send to sijis fedoraproject org?
18:09 < hiemanshu> sijis, you can look in the header and get the link to it
18:09 < ricky> Yeah, we used to have jquery on the website, but we weren't using it anywhere, so I took it out
18:09 < ricky> I don't remember how large it was
18:09 < hiemanshu> IIRC around 100kb
18:09 < ricky> Woah :-)
18:09 < hiemanshu> jquery is a big one
18:10  * mchua needs to drop out for a sec, but will be here if pinged
18:10 < sijis> mizmo: that email willwork
18:10 < ricky> Hopefully we can rip out the bits we need from it then
18:10 < ricky> Some people in Europe get pretty bad download speeds from our website, so we try to keep things pretty slim
18:10  * sijis is on his phone
18:10 < ricky> Thanks for working on this, sijis & mizmo
18:10 < ricky> Next:
18:10 -!- ghjskl [n=chat-Box 117 198 129 107] has joined #fedora-websites
18:10 < ricky> #topic Websites Meeting Time
18:10 -!- zodbot changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting Time (Meeting topic: Fedora Websites)
18:11 < mizmo> sijis: it's here https://fedorahosted.org/fedoracommunity/browser/fedoracommunity/widgets/templates/planet.mak
18:11 < mizmo> ill email it too
18:11 < sijis> ok.
18:11 < ricky> So this is the last meeting that I can make at this time :-/
18:12 < hiemanshu> ricky, FESco the only reason?
18:12 < ricky> If this time is already good for everybody, we can definitely leave it as is, but it'd be good if we can find another one as well :-)
18:12 < ricky> Nope, class :-)
18:12 < hiemanshu> ahhh
18:12 < mizmo> ricky: sijis did all the work lol
18:12 < hiemanshu> this time is fine with me (10:30 pm my time)
18:12 < mizmo> im totally open to moving to another time
18:13 < hiemanshu> +/- 1 would work for /me
18:13 < ricky> mchua: What was that site you used to collect meeting times again?  Could you possibly send one of those to f-w-l?  :-)
18:13 < mchua> ricky: whenisgood.net
18:13 < mchua> ricky: you probably want to initiate it so that it's set up with times that work for you
18:14 < ricky> So watch out for that email, and please fill in the good times for you :-)
18:14 < ricky> Will do
18:14 < ricky> #topic Open Floor
18:14 -!- zodbot changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Open Floor (Meeting topic: Fedora Websites)
18:14 < sijis> +/- 1 or 2 is good
18:14 < hiemanshu> ricky, will -1 work for you?
18:14 < ricky> OK, that's pretty much all I have, feel free to continue with the get/spins stuff if you want :-)
18:14  * mchua can continue site redesign schedule discussion here, or after meeting, as folks prefer.
18:14 < mizmo> -1 is harder for me cuz that's lunch time
18:15 < mizmo> but we'll hash it out on the list maybe
18:15 < ricky> hiemanshu: I'll have to see - I'll a week completely blocked out in the email that I send
18:15 < sijis> mizmo: ypu west coast
18:15 < mchua> yeah, ricky sending out the whenisgood should pretty much solve everything
18:15 < hiemanshu> ricky, that should work
18:15 < sijis> i agree
18:16 < mizmo> oh i have something to ask about get.fpo
18:16 < mizmo> how will we handle mirrors
18:16 < mizmo> are we disregarding them for get.fpo?
18:16 < hiemanshu> mizmo, get-fedora-all page?
18:16 < hiemanshu> close to what we have now
18:16  * sijis goes away
18:16 < hiemanshu> bye sijis
18:17 < ricky> Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by handling mirrors
18:17 -!- daMaestro [n=jon fedora/damaestro] has quit "Leaving"
18:17 < mizmo> ricky: well right now we have a link and if you want to download from a mirror you hunt it down on mirrors.fpo
18:17 < mizmo> ricky: i think ideally you'd click on the DL link and it'd route you to the right mirror
18:17  * hiemanshu was right, yay!
18:17 < mizmo> looking them up manually is nuts
18:17 < ricky> That's what download.fedoraproject.org does right now
18:18 < hiemanshu> mizmo, we would need an advanced options page
18:18 -!- daMaestro [n=jon fedora/damaestro] has joined #fedora-websites
18:18 < hiemanshu> (for metalinks and jigdo)
18:18 < ricky> Looking up is mainly used for when the one you automatically get directed to fails for whatever reason, or you can make a better manual choice than the redirector does
18:18 < mizmo> ricky: download.fpo or get.fpo? download.fpo points to a red hat site
18:18 < ricky> We run download.fedoraproject.org, and all it does is choose a mirror for you and redirect you to it
18:18 < ricky> Try this: wget download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux
18:18 < mizmo> it points me here http://download.fedora.devel.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux//
18:19 < mizmo> ricky: so why can't the download button on get.fpo do the same thing?
18:19  * hiemanshu gets to http://mirror.cse.iitk.ac.in/fedora//
18:19 < mizmo> or does it
18:19 < ricky> Ah, that's because somebody setup a mirrormanager rule to redirect you to an internal mirror
18:19 < mizmo> ohhhhh okay
18:19 < ricky> It does if you try from say, fedorapeople.org
18:19 < mizmo> ricky: so is there a way we can make that work so you click the 'download now' button on get.fpo and it points you to the desktop livemedia iso x86 from an appropriate mirror?
18:20 < ricky> Yes :-)  That's basically exactly what we have right now
18:20 < hiemanshu> mizmo, isnt it how it works right now?
18:20 < ricky> (As in download.fedoraproject.org performs the function of redirecting you to the proper mirror)
18:20 < hiemanshu>  /nod
18:20 < ricky> (Based on rules manually entered in mirrormanager and other info such as geolocation on your IP address)
18:21 < mizmo> ricky: ohhh okay
18:21 < mizmo> sweet
18:21 < mizmo> the best features are the ones u dont notice and JustWork TM :)
18:22 < ricky> Hehe
18:23 < mchua> can I pop in and finish the scheduling discussion for website redesign real quick here?
18:23 < mchua> there are only 2 questions we need answered
18:24 < hiemanshu> mchua, shoot
18:24 < mchua> mizmo: we have 5 full weeks from tuesday until our "start html/css mockups" deadline (sep 29) (or if we go with hiemanshu's sep 20 deadline, 4 full weeks almost exactly.)
18:24 < mchua> mizmo: given that those 5 (or 4) weeks need to have both "get feedback + determine metrics" and then "make final design mockups" phases
18:24 < mchua> mizmo: how long do you want to spend on each?
18:25 < mchua> mizmo: (in other words, at what date do you want to put a hard cutoff on feedback-gathering?)
18:25 < mizmo> mchua: i dont want to spend any longer than till next friday  on get feedback + determine metrics
18:26 < mchua> mizmo: that's pretty tight, but if you say you need 3-4 weeks to make the final mockups, then you need 3-4 weeks to make the final mockups.
18:26 < mchua> in that case our schedule is
18:26 < mchua> DONE: requirements gathering
18:26 < mchua> DONE: design mockups
18:26 < mchua> NOW - Aug 28 :  gather feedback && metrics && usability testing
18:26 < mchua> Aug 28 - Sep 29 :design mockups final
18:26 < mchua> sep 29 - oct 20: convert to html/css
18:26 < mchua> oct 20 : onto infrastructure
18:26 -!- hammergod_ [n=chat-Box 117 198 129 107] has quit Connection timed out
18:26 < mchua> and now the people in charge of each phase...
18:27 < mchua> mizmo is pretty clearly on design, ricky I think is on infrastructure (and convert to html/css? or is that mizmo, or someone else?)
18:27  * hiemanshu promised to work on HTML/CSS conversion
18:27 < mchua> ok, hiemanshu for convert to html/css, in which case then we should switch to your sep 20 deadline :)
18:27 < hiemanshu> mchua, yup
18:27 < mchua> which gives mizmo 3 weeks to get from "feedback stopped!" to "here is final design"
18:28  * hiemanshu hopes other will be helping to
18:28 < mchua> if that sounds sane, mizmo
18:28  * ricky appreciates help on the HTML/CSS part - I haven't touched CSS this seriously for a looong while
18:28 < hiemanshu> mchua, as i said i allowed an extra week for it to slip
18:28 < hiemanshu> ricky, i ll be working with you :)
18:28 < mchua> hiemanshu: okeydokey.
18:28 < hiemanshu> 19+19 = 1919 :)
18:28 < mizmo> mchua: very sane
18:29 < mizmo> i can help with css too if u guys need it
18:29 < mchua> last question, then: who's accountable for this next week of gathering feedback && metrics && usability testing (though the last one probably can't happen in a week)?
18:29 < mizmo> im accountable i would say
18:29 < mizmo> i did the blog post and am engaging the advisory board list
18:29 < mchua> okeydokey.
18:29 < mchua> yup!
18:29 < hiemanshu> mchua, you here to help with HTML/CSS too?
18:30 < mchua> hiemanshu: can't promise anything, I may be utterly hosed with mktg stuff then, but if I'm on IRC I'm pingable.
18:30  * hiemanshu guesses onekopaka_away, sijis and nb would help too
18:31 < hiemanshu> mchua, the more people we have the faster we can work it out, and solve the bugs that can pop out
18:31  * mchua used to work as a web designer in college, making stuff for school's IT dept, so is hopefully not too miserably rusty on that front.
18:31 < hiemanshu> so extra help + head is appreciated
18:31 < mchua> hiemanshu: yeah, put me down as a "ping me when the time comes, and I'll help if I can," since I'm not sure how much I can absolutely commit right now.
18:31 < mchua> I hope I'll be able to help at least some.
18:31 < hiemanshu> mchua, more than the help the extra head helps
18:32 < mchua> y'all are doing the conversions smack in the middle of my busiest travel month this year though.
18:32 < hiemanshu> (like on blogs)
18:32  * mchua nods
18:32 < ricky> Haha
18:32 < mchua> I can certainly be an extra head.
18:33 < mchua> Hookeydokey. And this is the schedule for *both* get and spins, or just for one (and we need a separate one for the other)?
18:33  * mchua apologizes for dragging everyone through this schedule-creation process - I know it's painful, but we're almost through it.
18:33 < ricky> I think it's for both
18:34 < ricky> So the design and HTML/CSS phases cover both (although it's possible that the dates might be shifted a bit for get vs. spins)
18:34 < hiemanshu> ricky, which comes first?
18:34 < ricky> But as long as we have enough mockups to keep us busy throughout the HTML/CSS phase, it's all good :-)
18:34 < ricky> Probably spins.fp.o
18:35 < mchua> ricky: do we want to set staggered (maybe a week?) deadlines for feedback and design mockups of spins and get
18:35 < mchua> so that people can adjust their feedback on get based on the decisions made about spins?
18:35 < mchua> mizmo: ^^ actually, that's probably a question for you
18:36 < mizmo> im not following, are spins being scheduled separately than get.fpo?
18:37 < ricky> Er, maybe I complicated things needlessly with the staggering comment.
18:38 < mchua> mizmo: my impression was that the design of get will be (partially) determined by the design of spins
18:38 < mchua> mizmo: (or rather, that spins is a dependency of get)
18:39 < mchua> mizmo: so I was wondering if it might make sense to build in a week of "spins is set, let's adjust get to make sure we match that" feedback time and design time
18:39  * mchua makes up schedule to show folks what that would look like
18:39 < mizmo> mchua: ah okay
18:39 < mizmo> mchua: hmm
18:40 < mizmo> mchua: that makes sense
18:40  * hiemanshu just voted on whenisgood
18:41  * mchua pastebins, since this is a bit long
18:41 < mchua> http://fpaste.org/1Zmi/
18:41 -!- morpheuss is now known as imran
18:41 < mchua> mizmo, ricky, hiemanshu: like that - if that'd work for your schedule, basically hiemanshu would have a week where all we have to convert is the spins designs, and the get would hit a week later
18:42 -!- imran is now known as morpheuss
18:42 < hiemanshu> mchua, perfect
18:42 < ricky> Looks good to me, thanks for making it
18:43  * mizmo takes a look
18:43 < mizmo> mchua: that looks great except i probably wont be able to do usability testing, but maybe
18:43 < mizmo> if all the equipment arrives before i leavae for the summit maybe i can lug the usability lab with me :)
18:44  * hiemanshu can find people to test
18:44 < mchua> mizmo: OoooOOOooooo!
18:44 < mizmo> im working the summit, so i can totally be like
18:44 < mizmo> 'hmm want your conference badge? okay. i'll give it to ya. if you usability test this page first!'
18:44 < ricky> Hehe
18:44 < mchua> mizmo: I'm a willing usability testing lackey in Boston, in case the stuff arrives after you leave + someone can teach me how to use it.
18:44 < hiemanshu> :D
18:44 < mizmo> mchua: kk
18:45 < mchua> mizmo: "I Usability Tested The Fedora Website!" badge-stickers!
18:45  * mchua kidding
18:45 < mchua> (mostly)
18:45 < hiemanshu> " I helped mizmo finish work on schedule" badges would be better :D
18:46 < mizmo> lol
18:46  * mchua wants "I saved mchua's ass" stickers
18:46 < mchua> (we'd need thousands)
18:46 < mchua> Anyhow, I'm satisfied with schedule/milestones/etc on this, I can haz make project page
18:46  * mchua is done
18:46 < hiemanshu> ricky, i think we are done
18:47 < ricky> OK then, thanks a lot
18:47 < ricky> #endmeeting
18:47 -!- zodbot changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: The Fedora Websites team maintains the official Fedora Project websites (http://fedoraproject.org/) | Want to help us? Contact the respective leaders listed here : http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites#Projects | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites
18:47 < zodbot> Meeting ended Fri Aug 21 18:47:10 2009 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot .
18:47 < zodbot> Minutes:        http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-websites/2009-08-21/fedora-websites.2009-08-21-17.00.html
18:47 < zodbot> Minutes (text): http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-websites/2009-08-21/fedora-websites.2009-08-21-17.00.txt
18:47 < ricky> *phew*
18:47 < zodbot> Log:            http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-websites/2009-08-21/fedora-websites.2009-08-21-17.00.log.html
18:47 < hiemanshu> This one was long
18:47 < mchua> ricky, poelcat, stickster: dunno if any of you want to be the ones hollering "are we on schedule?" for this each week, or if I ought to put this on my calendar...

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