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Re: [libvirt] RFCv2: virDomainSnapshotCreateXML enhancements
- From: Eric Blake <eblake redhat com>
- To: Kevin Wolf <kwolf redhat com>
- Cc: "libvir-list redhat com" <libvir-list redhat com>
- Subject: Re: [libvirt] RFCv2: virDomainSnapshotCreateXML enhancements
- Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 07:23:03 -0600
On 08/11/2011 04:00 AM, Kevin Wolf wrote:
Am 11.08.2011 00:08, schrieb Eric Blake:
After re-reading the feedback received on those threads, I think I've
settled on a pretty robust design for my first round of adding
improvements to the management of snapshots tied to a domain, while
leaving the door open for future extensions.
Sorry this email is so long (I've had it open in my editor for more than
48 hours now as I keep improving it), but hopefully it is worth the
effort to read. See the bottom if you want the shorter summary on the
It was definitely a good read, thanks for writing it up.
Thanks for taking the time to read it.
Of course, I'm not really familiar with libvirt (now a bit more than
before :-)), so all my comments are from a qemu developer perspective.
Some of them may look like stupid questions or turn out to be
misunderstandings, but I hope it's still helpful for you to see how qemu
people understand things.
Your comments are indeed helpful.
internal disk snapshot: a disk snapshot where both the saved state and
delta reside in the same file (possible with qcow2 and qed). If a disk
image is not in use by qemu, this is possible via 'qemu-img snapshot -c'.
QED doesn't support internal snapshots.
Good to know. That means that 'savevm' (checkpoint, internal, internal)
is indeed a qcow2-only feature. It also means that libvirt should
reject attempts to mix snapshot='internal' and qed.
external disk snapshot: a disk snapshot where the saved state is one
file, and the delta is tracked in another file. For a disk image not in
use by qemu, this can be done with qemu-img to create a new qcow2 file
wrapping any type of existing file. Recent qemu has also learned the
'snapshot_blkdev' monitor command for creating external snapshots while
qemu is using a disk, and the goal of this RFC is to expose that
functionality from within existing libvirt APIs.
saved state: all non-disk information used to resume a guest at the same
state, assuming the disks did not change. With qemu, this is possible
via migration to a file.
Is this terminology already used in libvirt? In qemu we tend to call it
the VM state.
"VM state" is a bit nicer than "saved state", so I'll keep that in mind
as I actually write the code and put comments in. Right now, I believe
'man virsh' favors saved state (after all, this is what you get with the
'virsh save' and 'virsh managedsave' commands).
Libvirt currently has a bug in that it only saves<domain>/<uuid> rather
than the full domain xml along with a checkpoint - if any devices are
hot-plugged (or in the case of offline snapshots, if the domain
configuration is changed) after a snapshot but before the revert, then
things will most likely blow up due to the differences in devices in use
by qemu vs. the devices expected by the snapshot.
Offline snapshot means that it's only a disk snapshot, so I don't think
there is any problem with changing the hardware configuration before
Or does libvirt try to provide something like offline checkpoints, where
restoring would not only restore the disk but also roll back the libvirt
Reverting to an offline checkpoint _should_ be reverting the libvirt
configuration back to match (so if you make an offline checkpoint, then
add a drive, then revert to the checkpoint, the added drive should be
gone). The bug I was referring to is that libvirt does not currently
track enough information to properly do the rollback, and that one of
the goals of this RFC is to fix that shortcoming.
How do you decide whether to use internal or external snapshots? Should
this be another flag? In fact we have multiple dimensions:
There are indeed multiple dimensions, as well as two parameters which
can affect the dimensions (an xml argument means that we can add
arbitrary additional xml constructs to cram in as much additional
tweaking we can dream of for the command, and a flags argument is
limited to at most 32 binary decisions). I hope I'm making the right
tradeoff in using flags vs. xml.
* Disk snapshot or checkpoint? (you have a flag for this)
Correct - my rationale here is that the <state> sublement of the
<domainsnapshot> is currently output-only (it is ignored on
virDomainSnapshotCreateXML), but accurately tracks which way the flag
was chosen (state will be one of offline|running|paused if a checkpoint,
or disk-snapshot if a disk snapshot); making this choice via flag meant
that I did not have to change the snapshot creation to parse the xml to
make the decision.
* Disk snapshot stored internally or externally (missing)
XML does this - my rationale is that this is not a binary decision, but
requires as much arbitrary information as there are disks in the domain.
Therefore, the solution must involve new xml elements; I added <disks>
with multiple <disk> subelements to detail the decision for each disk.
* VM state stored internally or externally (missing)
Correct that this is missing for now. For qemu, you can either store VM
state externally (migrate to file, used by 'virsh save' and 'virsh
managedsave') but have no disk snapshots, or you can store VM state
internally (savevm, used by 'virsh snapshot-create'), but with no way
avoid disk snapshots. It would indeed be possible for future extensions
to make virDomainSnapshotCreateXML become a superset of virDomainSave at
creating external VM state, or even to make virDomainSaveFlags (which
also takes an xml argument) be enhanced to make both the external
snapshot and the disk snapshots), but I'm leaving that for future
extensions and focusing on snapshot_blkdev integration at the present.
qemu currently only supports (disk, ext), (disk, int), (checkpoint, int,
int). But other combinations could be made possible in the future, and I
think especially the combination (checkpoint, int, ext) could be
Indeed, and I think that we still have room to expand in this direction;
just as <domainsnapshot> is now learning <disks> for whether each disk
should be internal or external, we could also teach it a new subelement
<vmstate> (or some nicer spelling) for controlling whether the VM state
is internal (and if so, in which qcow2 image) or external.
[ Okay, some of it is handled later in this document, but I think it's
still useful to leave this summary in my mail. External VM state is
something that you don't seem to have covered yet - can't we do this
already with live migration to a file? ]
Yes, external VM state is already covered with live migration to file,
and I will not be touching it while implementing this RFC, but future
extensions may be able to further unify the two concepts.
libvirt can be taught to honor persistent=no for qemu by creating a
qcow2 wrapper file prior to starting qemu, then tearing down that
wrapper after the fact, although I'll probably leave that for later in
my patch series.
qemu can already do this with -drive snapshot=on. It must be allowed to
create a temporary file for this to work, of course. Is that a problem?
If not, I would just forward the option to qemu.
Where would that file be created? If the main image is in a directory,
is the temporary would also live in that directory (shared storage
visible to another qemu for migration purposes) or in local storage
(preventing migration)? If migration is possible, would libvirt need to
be able to learn the name of the temporary file so as to tell the new
qemu on the destination the same temporary file name it should open?
What about if the main image is a block device - there, the temporary
file obviously has to live somewhere else, but how does qemu decide
where, and should that decision be configurable by the user? How will
things interact with SELinux labeling? What about down the road when we
add enhancements to enforce that qemu cannot open() files on NFS, but
must instead receive fds by inheritance?
This certainly sounds like some fertile ground for design decisions on
how libvirt and qemu should interact; I don't know if -drive snapshot=on
is reliable enough for use by libvirt, or whether libvirt will end up
having to manage things itself.
Obviously, my implementation of this RFC will start simple, by rejecting
persistent=no for qemu, until we've answered some of those other design
questions; I can get snapshot_blkdev support working before we have to
tackle this enhancement.
The other thing to be aware of is that with internal snapshots, qcow2
maintains a distinction between current state and a snapshot - that is,
qcow2 is _always_ tracking a delta, and never modifies a named snapshot,
even when you use 'qemu-img snapshot -a' to revert to different snapshot
names. But with named files, the original file now becomes a read-only
backing file to a new active file; if we revert to the original file,
and make any modifications to it, the active file that was using it as
backing will be corrupted. Therefore, the safest thing is to reject any
attempt to revert to any snapshot (whether checkpoint or disk snapshot)
that has an existing child snapshot consisting of an external disk
snapshot. The metadata for each of these children can be deleted
manually, but that requires quite a few API calls (learn how many
children exist, get the list of children, and for each child, get its
xml to see if that child has the target snapshot as a parent, and if so
delete the snapshot). So as shorthand, virDomainRevertToSnapshot will
be taught a new flag, VIR_DOMAIN_SNAPSHOT_REVERT_DELETE_CHILDREN, which
first deletes any children of the snapshot about to be deleted prior to
reverting to that particular child.
I think the API should make it possible to revert to a given external
snapshot without deleting all children, but by creating another qcow2
file that uses the same backing file. Basically this new qcow2 file
would be the equivalent to the "current state" concept qcow2 uses for
Interesting idea. But I'm not quite sure how to fit it into existing API.
Remember, existing API is that you have an existing file name, and when
you call snapshot_blkdev, you are specifying a new file name that
becomes the live qcow2 file, rendering the previous file name as the
<disk name='vda' snapshot='external'>
in the <domainsnapshot> is naming the new active file name, not the
snapshot. If we go with that representation, then reverting to the
snapshot means that you want to re-create a new qcow2 file for new
active state, but what do we call it? We can't call it
/path/to/original (since we want to reuse that as the backing file to
both branches in the snapshot hierarchy), and we can't call it
/path/to/new from the xml naming unless we get rid of the existing copy
of /path/to/new. I see two options for future enhancements, but neither
has to be implemented right away (that is, this RFC is fine limiting the
reversion to a disk-snapshot to only occur when there are no
descendants, as long as we can later relax that restriction in the
future once we figure out how to do branched descendants).
It should be possible to make both look the same to users if we think
this is a good idea.
1. As a user, I'd much rather have an interface where _I_ decide the
name of the snapshot, but keep the active file name unchanged. That is,
the current semantics of snapshot_blkdev feel a bit backward (it
requires me to tell you the name of the new active file, and the
existing name becomes the snapshot), where I would naively expect to
have a mode where I tell you the name to rename() the existing file
into, at which point you then recreate the original name as a active
qcow2 file that has the new snapshot name as its backing file. But I'm
not entirely sure how that would play with SELinux permissions. Also,
while rename() works for files, it is lousy for the case of the original
name being a block device which can't be rename()'d, so I think the
current snapshot_blkdev semantics are correct even if they feel a bit
backwards. But it would be nice if we could design future qemu
enhancements that would allow the creation of a snapshot of arbitrary
name while keeping the live file name unchanged.
2. It is possible to add a new libvirt API, virDomainSnapshotCreateFrom,
which takes an existing snapshot as a child of the given snapshot passed
in as its parent. This would combine the action of reverting to a
disk-snapshot along with the xml argument necessary for naming a new
live file, so that you could indeed support branching off the
disk-snapshot with a user-specified or libvirt-generated new active file
name without having to delete the existing children that were branched
off the old active file name, and making the original base file the
backing file to both branches. Unfortunately, adding a new API is out
of the question for backporting purposes.
2a. But thinking about it a bit more, maybe we don't need a new API, but
just an XML enhancement to the existing virDomainSnapshotCreateXML!
That is, if I specify:
then we can accomplish your goal, without any qemu changes, and without
any new libvirt API. That is, right now, <parent> is an output-only
aspect of snapshot xml, but by allowing it to be an input element
(probably requiring the use of a new flag,
VIR_DOMAIN_SNAPSHOT_CREATE_BRANCH), then it is possible to both revert
to the state of the old snapshot and specify the new file name to use to
collect the branched delta data from that point in time. It also means
that creation of a branched snapshot would have to learn some of the
same flags as reverting to a snapshot (can you create the branch as well
as run a new qemu process?) I'll play with the ideas, once I get the
groundwork of this RFC done first.
Thanks for forcing me to think about it!
Eric Blake eblake redhat com +1-801-349-2682
Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org
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