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Re: [libvirt] [PATCH V2] Expose all CPU features in host definition



On Mon, Jul 01, 2013 at 09:43:58AM -0600, Don Dugger wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 01, 2013 at 09:44:52AM +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 02:26:02PM -0600, Don Dugger wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 09:03:55PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 11:51:32AM -0600, Don Dugger wrote:
> > > > > On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 10:24:48AM +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 10:35:58AM -0600, Don Dugger wrote:
> > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 10:27:36AM +0200, Jiri Denemark wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 12:32:35 -0600, Don Dugger wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 03:06:52PM +0200, Jiri Denemark wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > I was just trying to say that it doesn't provide anything more than
> > > > > > > > > > "it's supported by the host CPU", which gives mostly no value in the
> > > > > > > > > > context of libvirt. Can you explain more what the use case is in which a
> > > > > > > > > > virt client would need to know what specific feature are supported by
> > > > > > > > > > host CPU? I feel like we should avoid people from being under the
> > > > > > > > > > impression that they can actually use the CPU capabilities for checking
> > > > > > > > > > whether a host can run guests that require specific CPU features.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > The specific use case I'm trying to address is a cloud environment where,
> > > > > > > > > with hundreds of hosts, you might want to schedule an instance to a host
> > > > > > > > > that supports a particular HW acceleration, like AES/NI.  I agree, what
> > > > > > > > > I `really` want is an API that shows the capabilities of a specific guest
> > > > > > > > > that could be created on the host but, absent that API, at least knowing
> > > > > > > > > that a host doesn't support the feature is more information than I can get
> > > > > > > > > right now.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Hmm, fair enough. Let's wait a few days for Daniel to return from
> > > > > > > > vacation in case he wants to express his opinion here.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > So, any progress here?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I believe the cloud use case above is approaching the problem in the wrong
> > > > > > way. We designed our APIs such that apps should never need to write logic
> > > > > > for comparing CPU features directly. If an application has a set of CPU
> > > > > > features it requires from the host, then it should use a libvirt API to
> > > > > > query whether those features are available, not try to write the CPU
> > > > > > fetaure comparison logic itself.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > You can already pretty much do this with te virConnectCompareCPU()
> > > > > > method, by passing an XML document which specifies the AES/NI feature
> > > > > > flag that you want to check for support of. Then libvirt will tell
> > > > > > you whether the host CPU can support it. It is entirely possible to
> > > > > > make use of this capability as is in OpenStack.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I don't think this would work with the way scheduling in OpenStack works.
> > > > > The problem is that the OpenStack scheduler doesn't want to query each node
> > > > > in the system on every schedule request (with 100s if not 1,000s of compute
> > > > > nodes this would not be practical).  Instead the scheduler maintains info
> > > > > about all of the compute nodes and, when a request comes in, the scheduler
> > > > > identifies the best compute node for the request and then causes the VM
> > > > > to be started on that node.  Apriori the scheduler doesn't even know which
> > > > > CPU features users are interested in, that information only becomes available
> > > > > when a schedule request comes in so trying to do a `virConnectCompareCPU()'
> > > > > call at that point in time is too late.
> > > > 
> > > > I think your model for user interaction is wrong here. I don't believe
> > > > that OpenStack should be directly exposing the ability for a user to
> > > > explicitly request individual CPU flags for individual VMs. This is
> > > > too risky from a cloud administrator POV, because it could result in
> > > > a user monopolizing a small subset of machines in the guest with
> > > > particular features.  Instead an administrator should be defining
> > > > new flavours with specific CPU feature characteristics. The user can
> > > 
> > > That's the exact mechanism that is being proposed, the ability to define
> > > a flavor that specifies capabilities that are required.  The issue is
> > > that the flavor is defined independently from the scheduler, it's only
> > > when a schedule request is made that the flavor is presented to the scheduler
> > > and then the scheduler needs to identify which of 1,000s of nodes can
> > > satisfy that flavor.
> > 
> > Every 60 seconds or so, every node issues an update indicating what its
> > capabilities are. In that update the nodes could do the CPU compatbility
> > checks and then include the list of which flavours they are capable of
> > executing in their capability update, so that it is then available to
> > the schedular when needed
> 
> This doesn't work for multiple reasons.
> 
>   1.  Ultimately, I want to remove the periodic capability update completely.
>       The better technique is to update compute node state when the state
>       changes, periodic updates are just extra overhead.
>   2.  There's no concept of which nodes support which flavors so this is
>       a completely new infrastructure that would have to be added to the
>       scheduler.
>   3.  There's no easy way for the compute node to know which flavors it
>       supports.  It doesn't know which filters are enabled in the scheduler
>       so it doesn't know which clauses of a flavor actually apply (ignoring
>       that the compute node would now have to duplicate the filtering
>       mechanism from the scheduler even if it knew which filters were
>       enabled).
> 
> The virConnectGetCapabilities already returns a list of CPU features, all
> my patch does is have it explicitly return a complete set of features, which
> I think is the right thing to do and certainly simplifies my specific use
> case.

Had any more thoughts on these issues?

> 
> > 
> > > > then choose the flavour with the CPU characteristics. In this way the
> > > > system can know ahead of time what flavours are possible on what
> > > > host, and do you don't need to query all nodes at scheduling time.
> > > 
> > > Note I am not proposing that we make a query at schedule time.  The
> > > system is already setup to have the compute nodes send configuration
> > > info to the scheduler, all I want to do is sent complete info (e.g. all
> > > of the CPU features).
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Daniel
> > -- 
> > |: http://berrange.com      -o-    http://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange/ :|
> > |: http://libvirt.org              -o-             http://virt-manager.org :|
> > |: http://autobuild.org       -o-         http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :|
> > |: http://entangle-photo.org       -o-       http://live.gnome.org/gtk-vnc :|
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Don Dugger
> "Censeo Toto nos in Kansa esse decisse." - D. Gale
> n0ano n0ano com
> Ph: 303/443-3786
> 
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> 

-- 
Don Dugger
"Censeo Toto nos in Kansa esse decisse." - D. Gale
n0ano n0ano com
Ph: 303/443-3786


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