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Re: [linux-lvm] LVM home server (more in depth info & analysis)



Ron,
    No offense taken.  You feedback was very succinct and well reasoned.

    I've given up on a SW RAID5 solution (for obvious reasons), and am
thinking that I could create an LVM across all 4 disks (will be adding
another 40GB drive pretty soon), keeping a 200 GB drive spare to
backup to using compressed afio archives on a cron schedule.

    All things considered, I've not had a drive failure in a long time. 
I'm running the smartmontools every night via cron and promptly take
care of any issues that they uncover.  The machine is running on a
good UPS, so alot of power problems have already been eliminated.  Now
it's just a matter of handling the serious events that occur
occasionally, like when RH8 went crazy and wiped out all of the
partition tables of all the hard disks (good thing I had the old
server as a cold backup).  I don't think that even RAID5 would have
saved me there!

    All this is eventually going to be in support of a MythTV or two, and
I'm thinking that if the two MythTV's share their programs on a file
server, that they could easily play programs from the library (such as
it it).  Or something like that.  Even if it's a manual copy of
programs to/from a MythTV, this storage would still be useful.

    So if the TV programs all got blown away, it's not really that
important I guess.  So your point of what the data is WORTH, is a very
important one to consider.

    Unfortunately, I've got a lot of other stuff on that same file system
that I'd want to save, like all the program patches that I've
downloaded, the install set for SuSE 9.0, 9.1, and 9.2 (9.2 is pretty
worthless IMHO - Novell's hand in action?).  All my Music files, and
all my video files (other than the MythTV stuff wink - wink, nudge -
nudge), well you get the idea.  So I'll probably not be backup
everything from the LVM and an XFS file system.

And I've decided to use the evmsgui as my main administration tool.  I
figure with evms native volume, that Id have the most flexibility (just
playing around with it now).

On Wed, March 2, 2005 2:08, Ron Watkins said:
> Unfortunately, RAID5 just isn't very flexible.   In exchange, you get to
> use
> most of your purchased drive space, you don't have to spend a mountain of
> money, and you get pretty reasonable speed.  (slow on writes, quite fast
> on
> reads).  RAID-10 is faster, and can often take more drives failing (small
> chance of up to half), but costs you 50% of your storage space.
>
> It's a bit suboptimal, but you can, using LVM, expand a RAID-5, by adding
> more discrete RAID-5 PVs.  Each individual RAID array should be made from
> similar drives, but you can stripe across multiple physical RAIDs that
> way.
> This is, however, less reliable.  Whenever you stripe across multiple
> volumes, if any of the volumes fail, you lose everything.  RAID5 volumes
> are
> less likely to fail, but whatever that risk is, you're taking multiples of
> that risk by striping across multiple volumes.
>
> I'm sorry I was so annoyed-sounding, I don't normally flame too much.
> That
> last question I asked was actually somewhat serious... what is your data
> WORTH?  If it's just stuff you can easily recreate, like video files off
> Usenet, then you may not need a RAID at all.  Just join all your existing
> disks together.  You have a high chance of failure that way, but if you
> don't care about the data, big deal.  A failure just costs you some
> rebuilding time.
>
> If you do care about the data, and it sounds like you do, think about how
> much it would cost you to replace, and budget accordingly.  My pointed
> words
> were coming from a background of 'data loss is a catastrophe!'.  If it's
> not
> unique/irreplaceable, maybe just burning it to CD every once in awhile
> would
> be enough.
>
> If you really do want the data protection of a RAID, your design won't get
> you there. Do it right... spend enough money to do a good job.  Otherwise,
> just back up stuff you care about.
>
> You can often save money by being clever, but RAID itself is already
> exceedingly clever.  No matter how much thinking time you do, you're not
> likely to improve on it much.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Erik Ohrnberger" <erik echohome org>
> To: "'LVM general discussion and development'" <linux-lvm redhat com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:27 PM
> Subject: RE: [linux-lvm] Building up a RAID5 LVM home server (long)
>
>
>> Ron,
>>    Well, there is no mistaking this feedback  ;-)
>>
>>    Thanks for the direct, succinct feedback.  I think you are right in
>> your
>> points.
>>
>>    The search goes on to balance flexibility, cost, and benefits, as
>> always.
>>
>>    Erik.
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: linux-lvm-bounces redhat com
>>> [mailto:linux-lvm-bounces redhat com] On Behalf Of Ron Watkins
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:10 PM
>>> To: Erik echohome org; LVM general discussion and development
>>> Subject: Re: [linux-lvm] Building up a RAID5 LVM home server (long)
>>>
>>>
>>> This is absolutely insane.   It is among the dumbest designs
>>> I've ever seen.
>>> You are using HDA as a component in MD0 and MD1, and then
>>> using HDA AGAIN as
>>> part of MD2 directly, while using it indirectly via MD0 and
>>> MD1.   You're
>>> going to A) bottleneck on HDA, B) you're going to beat that
>>> drive to death,
>>> and C) if that drive goes, you are HOSED.  Plus, you are just
>>> begging for
>>> problems with potential bugs in the RAID driver code.  This
>>> whole setup is
>>> an INCREDIBLY bad idea.  You're trying to 'be clever' to save
>>> yourself some
>>> money, and all you're doing is buying trouble.
>>>
>>> The way RAID5 is meant to work is with disks of approximately
>>> the same size.
>>> RAID5 is not expandable, unless you have a very expensive hardware
>>> controller.  There are algorithms that will let you expand
>>> the size of a
>>> RAID5 volume, but they have not, to my knowledge, been
>>> implemented in open
>>> source.   You CANNOT do what you want to do, cheaply.  You
>>> can spend a great
>>> deal of money to satisfy most of your design parameters, but
>>> NOT cheaply.
>>> If you want it cheap, use fixed drives of about the same
>>> size, and don't
>>> think about expansion.  When you're ready to expand, hook up
>>> another, bigger
>>> RAID and copy your data.   In NO case can you use that
>>> hodgepodge of junk
>>> drives you've collected.
>>>
>>> Most of your drives are obsolete.  Keep the biggest one, buy
>>> at least two
>>> more of the same size, and set up a RAID5 using that.  All
>>> this monkeying
>>> around to try to extract some last value from drives totally
>>> ill-suited for
>>> the purpose is going to cost you far, far more than new
>>> drives ever could.
>>>
>>> Hell, keep the smaller ones around, put them into a concatenated LVM2
>>> volume, and use them as a backup.  It's not the best backup
>>> in the world,
>>> but it's better than nothing.
>>>
>>> Do it right.  This is your data you're trying to save.  You
>>> can get very
>>> nice 250-gig PATA Western Digital drives for $165 from
>>> www.newegg.com.  They
>>> are specifically designed for RAID.  Buy 4 and save yourself
>>> this massive
>>> headache.  If you don't need that much space, buy smaller drives.
>>>
>>> Or, you can persist in trying to be clever, but it's a
>>> virtual *certainty*
>>> you're going to lose data if you go this route.  Pay now, or
>>> pay later.
>>> What's your data worth?
>>>
>>> <<RON>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Erik Ohrnberger" <erik echohome org>
>>> To: "'LVM general discussion and development'" <linux-lvm redhat com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 10:27 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [linux-lvm] Building up a RAID5 LVM home server (long)
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > ... SNIP ...
>>> >> >What if the I broke everything into 10 GB pieces, and
>>> >> created multiple
>>> >> >raid5 sets?  Then I could LVM2 them together and have a large
>>> >> >filesystem that way.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >a=20GB, b=30GB, c=40GB
>>> >> >
>>> >> >a-1 + b-1 + c-1 = md0 (approx 30 GB storage)
>>> >> >a-2 + b-2 + c-2 = md1 (approx 30 GB storage)
>>> >> >      b-3 + c-3 = md2 (waiting for one more drive)
>>> >> >            c-4 = md3 (waiting for two more drives)
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> This is sorta what I do.  But in my opinion the gain of
>>> having RAID5
>>> >> (over RAID1) is when you get over 3 disks...  at 3 disks you are
>>> >> burning 33% for redudnacy... 25% or 20% or  17% sounds
>>> better to me.
>>> >> I guess if
>>> >> you go too far it costs in calculating the parity.
>>> >
>>> > Overhead: Yea, OK. Nothing is without a price.
>>> > I fooled around with various ideas, and came up with this for my
>>> > particulars:
>>> > (Note, rounded to nearest GB)
>>> >
>>> > 80 GB /dev/hda 60 GB /dev/hdb 40 GB /dev/hdc 45 GB
>>> > /dev/hdd
>>> >
>>> > GB /dev/md0 (RAID0)
>>> > 40 /dev/hdc
>>> > 15 /dev/hda1
>>> > 55
>>> >
>>> > /dev/md1 (RAID0)
>>> > 45 /dev/hdd
>>> > 10 /dev/hda2
>>> > 55
>>> >
>>> > /dev/md2 (RAID5)
>>> > 55 /dev/md0
>>> > 55 /dev/md1
>>> > 55 /dev/hda3
>>> > 55 /dev/hdb
>>> > 220
>>> >
>>> > Yea, OK, so like the 220 is a bit optimistic, but should get pretty
>>> > close
>>> > to
>>> > that.
>>> >
>>> > What do you think?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > linux-lvm mailing list
>>> > linux-lvm redhat com
>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-> lvm
>>> > read the
>>> LVM HOW-TO at
>>> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/
>>> >
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> linux-lvm mailing list
>>> linux-lvm redhat com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-lvm
>>> read the LVM HOW-TO at http://tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> linux-lvm mailing list
>> linux-lvm redhat com
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-lvm
>> read the LVM HOW-TO at http://tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> linux-lvm mailing list
> linux-lvm redhat com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-lvm
> read the LVM HOW-TO at http://tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/
>



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