[olpc-software] AbiWord, HIG
Alan Kay
alan.kay at squeakland.org
Thu Mar 16 16:03:39 UTC 2006
Hi Jim --
I'm worried more about school systems that have committed to "you know who"
and who disallow any downloading of executables.
Cheers,
Alan
--------------
At 06:57 PM 3/15/2006, Jim Gettys wrote:
>On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 10:12 -0800, Alan Kay wrote:
> > Hi Kim --
> >
> > At 09:56 AM 3/15/2006, Jim Gettys wrote:
> > >Firefox and Opera (and probably Safari, but I have no first hand data),
> > >are much more capable of dynamic behavior than you probably realize.
> > > - Jim
> >
> > Makes sense. However, too bad the minimal needed things (e.g symmetric
> > authoring as in all other personal computer software) were not done in the
> > early browsers. That was a complete lapse.
> >
> > So perhaps the question is how to get around IE?
> >
>
>Well, installing Firefox or Opera is one strategy: nicely cross
>platform.
>
>Google just bought Writely: this is an AJAX based WYSIWYG editor, and
>similar (maybe less ambitious) editors are also being built for several
>Wiki's even using the pretty lame IE subset technology. Thankfully,
>Firefox's success is forcing Microsoft to finally update IE as well.
>Competition is good ;-).
>
>Another interesting proof of what can be done is Zimbra; if you really
>get your head around this stuff, one can build some really interesting
>apps now. It isn't quite ready to replace conventional toolkits, but
>their days are numbered.
> - Jim
>
> > > >
> > > > I said a little more about what I think the larger problem is in a
> recent
> > > > email to Rob.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Alan.
> > > >
> > > > At 08:25 AM 3/15/2006, Jim Gettys wrote:
> > > > >Ah, Alan, sounds like you can join the long line of X Window manager
> > > > >writers. All the titlebars and decorations for manipulating
> windows are
> > > > >generated by the WM, and not the application. Anything you can
> imagine
> > > > >should be possible with some work; it isn't buried in the base system
> > > > >where it is difficult to change. Fundamentally, this is one of
> the real
> > > > >innovations that we did with X, very different than other window
> systems
> > > > >of the '80s (including yours ;-)); window management is left to
> external
> > > > >applications and not hard-wired.
> > > > >
> > > > >While window manager wars have been unproductive, the ability to swap
> > > > >out window management policy also enabled X to survive and for
> desktops
> > > > >such as Gnome and KDE to be built many years after X11 was released.
> > > > >
> > > > >In fact, the early X Window managers had no stink'n title bars at
> > > > >all ;-), and were mostly driven by "control-shift-meta-cokebottle"
> > > > >keybindings; until X11, we couldn't even do titlebars and controls in
> > > > >the window managers.
> > > > > - Jim
> > > > >
> > > > >P.S. for those young turks here, it turns out that some keyboards
> at MIT
> > > > >really did have cokebottle keys in that era, though we never actually
> > > > >used them in window management. :-).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 07:09 -0800, Alan Kay wrote:
> > > > > > At 06:32 AM 3/15/2006, Robert Staudinger wrote:
> > > > > > >On 3/15/06, Alan Kay <alan.kay at squeakland.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Just curious ... why is a lot of real estate still being
> taken for
> > > > > > > > non-content items?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Please explain, what do you mean by "non-content items"? That the
> > > > > > >toolbar is too big?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I like to give the end-users the largest possible space for
> their own
> > > > > > content. So the UI question is how can we then make it easy to
> > > understand
> > > > > > and use the controls and tools without killing off the content
> > > space? E.g.
> > > > > > is there a more compact way to show the title of the doc without
> > > > > > permanently taking away vertical real estate (we don't need to
> know
> > > very
> > > > > > often, but would like to know without having to invoke a command)?
> > > Perhaps
> > > > > > alpha blending would work for this part of the UI?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are many other ways to provide access to controls -- e.g.
> William
> > > > > > Newman at PARC used a kind of overlay scheme that worked quite
> well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm mainly suggesting that more ideas be tried here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There are very likely more compact solutions that start out
> with
> > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > being visible, but as the user learns can move to more
> subtle and
> > > > > smaller
> > > > > > > > cues and access. Also, the chip set can do alpha blending, and
> > > we've
> > > > > > > > experimented with using that to overlay some of the UI, etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Sure, this stuff is just quickly thrown together. Of course a
> balance
> > > > > > >has to be found between optimal utilisation of available space and
> > > > > > >"usability".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And this could be (should be) different as the end-user learns.
> It's
> > > > > always
> > > > > > pained me that so little learning curve is built into most of
> > > today's UI
> > > > > > designs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Also I've been told in #olpc that colour and b/w screen
> > > > > > >resolutions are different, prolly that should be taken into
> account as
> > > > > > >well (maybe also a fullscreen/viewer mode for reading). All these
> > > > > > >factors multiply to a considerable number of "modes" which i'm not
> > > > > > >very happy about (in terms of development effort and UI
> complexity).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I certainly don't like modes ...It's possible to avoid modes *and*
> > > still
> > > > > > have full screen viewing. This should be a goal in general, and
> > > especially
> > > > > > on a small screen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >I'd be very interested learning more about the graphics
> capabilities
> > > > > > >of the machine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Right now it has a HW bitbltter with alpha, so quite a bit can
> be done.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Maybe some UI parts could be implemented in a scalable
> > > > > > >way using librsvg (if that will be available, it drags in
> cairo which
> > > > > > >was avoided for the n770).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I haven't heard the recent thoughts about Cairo, but it certainly
> > > was (and
> > > > > > probably is) part of the proposed system.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >I've also written the first few lines of a gtk engine with the
> goal of
> > > > > > >implementing something like
> > > > > > >http://ramnet.se/~nisse/diverse/temp/kidsthememock2.png - might be
> > > > > > >appealing for kids too. Unfortunately cairo based engines are
> quite
> > > > > > >slow ATM.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't want to foment strife here, but I've always thought that
> > > > > > applications are bad ideas -- they tend to stovepipe useful objects
> > > > > instead
> > > > > > of providing a playground to mix, match and make them. This is
> > > especially
> > > > > > true for a children's environment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Good start ... I encourage you to continue with more and
> different
> > > > > > > > experiments ...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > P.S. Can AbiWord take plugins (like a LOGO) that could
> > > manipulate its
> > > > > > > media?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >AbiWord's plugin system exports pretty much the whole internal
> API.
> > > > > > >Missing stuff can be hooked up without much effort.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This could be one route for the integration of media and
> scripting that
> > > > > > children need.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Alan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Best,
> > > > > > >Rob
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > olpc-software mailing list
> > > > > > olpc-software at redhat.com
> > > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/olpc-software
> > > > >--
> > > > >Jim Gettys
> > > > >One Laptop Per Child
> > > >
> > > >
> > >--
> > >Jim Gettys
> > >One Laptop Per Child
> >
> >
> > --
> > olpc-software mailing list
> > olpc-software at redhat.com
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/olpc-software
>--
>Jim Gettys
>One Laptop Per Child
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