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[OS:N:] RE: open-source-now-list digest, Vol 1 #465 - 8 msgs



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Subject: open-source-now-list digest, Vol 1 #465 - 8 msgs

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Today's Topics:

   1. Need Your Help Friends! (narm)
   2. Re: Re: Linux in schools (cont'd) (Todd Warner)
   3. Re: Re: Linux in schools (cont'd) (Daniel Callahan)
   4. Re: Re: Linux in schools (cont'd) (Brent Fox)
   5. Re: Linux in Schools (cont'd) (ekunin)
   6. Re: Need Your Help Friends! (JT Moree)
   7. Re: Re: Linux in Schools (cont'd) (Jens Hardings)
   8. Re: Re: Linux in Schools (cont'd) (jkinz rcn com)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: "narm" <narm go com jo>
To: <open-source-now-list redhat com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 23:06:26 +0200
Subject: [OS:N:] Need Your Help Friends!
Reply-To: open-source-now-list redhat com

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Dear friends,
I need your help friends ... I am writing a paper about Open Source
Software and Linux in general, and also about Open Source Software and
e-governments so please if you can help don't wait.

How can you help?
-----------------
1- Send me any information regarding e-government and Linux which
governments have switched to open source and Linux, and please include
your references.

2- What is the main things that makes Open Source Software better than
Closed Source Software for governments/e-governments.

3- How LUGs can introduce the Open Source concept to others who don't
know about it, and how can a LUG help in educating the community about
Linux and Open Source Software.

Thank you
Jordan LUG
Basem Narmok

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<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><tt><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Dear =
friends,<o:p></o:p></span></font></tt></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><tt><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I need your help friends ... I am writing a =
paper
about Open </span></font></tt><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Source<tt><font
face=3D"Courier New"> Software and Linux in general, and also about Open =
Source Software
</font></tt>and<tt><font face=3D"Courier New"> e-governments so please =
if you can
help don't wait.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face=3D"Courier New">How can you help?</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face=3D"Courier New">-----------------</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face=3D"Courier New">1- Send me any information regarding =
e-government
and Linux which </font></tt>governments<tt><font face=3D"Courier New"> =
have
switched to open source and Linux, and please include your =
</font></tt>references<tt><font
face=3D"Courier New">.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face=3D"Courier New">2- What is the main <span =
class=3DGramE>things</span>
that makes Open Source Software better than </font></tt>Closed<tt><font
face=3D"Courier New"> Source Software for =
governments/e-governments.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face=3D"Courier New">3- How <span class=3DSpellE>LUGs</span> =
</font></tt>can<tt><font
face=3D"Courier New"> introduce the Open Source concept to others who =
don't know
about it, and </font></tt>how<tt><font face=3D"Courier New"> can a LUG =
help in
educating the community about Linux and Open Source =
Software.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face=3D"Courier New">Thank =
you<o:p></o:p></font></tt></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><st1:country-region><st1:place><tt><font =
size=3D2
  face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Jordan</span></font></tt></st1:place></st1:cou=
ntry-region><tt><font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> =
LUG</span></font></tt><font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<tt><font face=3D"Courier New">Basem =
Narmok</font></tt></span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 17:15:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Todd Warner <taw redhat com>
To: open-source-now-list redhat com
Subject: Re: [OS:N:] Re: Linux in schools (cont'd)
Reply-To: open-source-now-list redhat com

On 9 Jan 2003, Brent Fox wrote:

> On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 18:53, Chris Spencer wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > The fact that Linux still only has 5% of the desktop market is not
> > because it doesn't have focus.  Instead it is proof that people don't
> > like to make decisions and are too lazy/scared to try something new.
>
> Rather, I think it's indicative of the enormous number of people using
> Windows and the inertia associated with that.  It takes time to unseat a
> monopoly of that size.  I wonder what the approximate number of Windows
> installations is worldwide.  It must be over 150 million...probably way
> over that.  You can't change that overnight no matter how good Linux
> is.  I would be willing to bet that the majority of Windows users still
> have not heard of Linux or at best only have a vague idea of what it
> is.
>
> So we have to keep improving Linux and continue making people aware that
> there are alternatives to Windows.  Most people are quite willing to try
> something new if you can show them how they will benefit.  For example,
> look at how the number of users connected to the Internet has mushroomed
> in the last seven years or so.  The benefits to being connected were so
> obvious that people were more than willing to learn something new.
>
> Cheers,
>    Brent


It took the introduction of the WWW for people to make that leap, years
after the Internet was born. I remember explaining in very excited words
how great the Internet was to my mother in 1988. I knew it would change
the world eventually. She didn't "get it". Now she does of course. It
took the introduction of the WWW (ie. the easier interface) for the
common man to make that leap... in what... 1993-1995?

We have to make the benefits to moving to Linux "so obvious". Right now
it isn't "so obvious". MS and Apple products are "good enough" in most
people's minds.

We're getting there. Who knows, maybe we'll just continue to creep into
everyone's desktop. Someday someone may say... "I can't really remember
when I started using this Linux stuff." *shrug*


> > Everyday Linux gets better.  Windoze gets better when Gates decides he
> > needs another money injection.
> >
> > It won't take long until Linux is the champion of the desktop.
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 13:09, ekunin wrote:
> > > I do not mean to belabor the point, though it turns out that way and
few
> > > here agree with me, but the issue of one or several distros as is
clear from
> > > Chris's post, is a matter of point of view. If you are a sophisticated
> > > computer user who gets off on tweaking things, you see limitations on
your
> > > right to tweak as an abridgement of "freedom". If you want Linux to go
> > > mainstream, I believe you must look at it from the perspective of the
> > > unsophisticated user who uses his computer like he uses his television
set,
> > > that is turns it on and off.
> > >
> > > This strikes me as obvious, but apparently it isn't.
> > >
> > > Ed Kunin
> > > http://www.egalite.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Subscription and Archive:
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/
> > > -
> > > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN:
> > > <https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn>
> > --
> > "Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most
> > dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American
> > act that could most easily defeat us."
> > - Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Subscription and Archive:
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/
> > -
> > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN:
> > <https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Subscription and Archive:
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/
> -
> For K12OS technical help join K12OSN:
> <https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn>
>

--
____________
 /odd Warner                                    <taw {redhat,pobox}.com>
          Bit Twiddler - Operation Cheetah Flip - Red Hat Inc.
---------------------gpg info in the message headers--------------------
"Sometimes you need to build a fire to keep warm, but you can't,
 and you freeze to death."
                  -Jack London, "To Build a Fire", book-a-minute version




--__--__--

Message: 3
From: Daniel Callahan <python eclectic-cheval net>
Organization: Castle Computer Consultants, Inc.
To: open-source-now-list redhat com
Subject: Re: [OS:N:] Re: Linux in schools (cont'd)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:33:06 -0600
Reply-To: open-source-now-list redhat com

On Thursday 09 January 2003 16:15, Todd Warner wrote:
> We're getting there. Who knows, maybe we'll just continue to creep into
> everyone's desktop. Someday someone may say... "I can't really remember
> when I started using this Linux stuff." *shrug*

It's going to be like Harry Potter... all word of mouth.  With the economy
going south, people are going to not just hear but *register* what their
friends and coworkers are saying about this OS that's free, secure, etc.,
etc.  Personally, I don't care if they get hooked on Linux or BSD.  Or even
if it just starts with a couple small companies switching to OpenOffice
because of its license.

The public will have to get over decades of the corporate-driven erosion of
choice (i.e., what happened to Heinz's 56 other varieties anyway?), but once
they realize -- nay, remember -- that choice is *good*, then it all hits
critical mass.

Of course, getting game & driver manufacturers on board won't hurt any!  :)

Daniel.

--
"Bash forehead on any key to continue..."
t-shirts still available for $15
Free shipping within the continental U.S.
Call (316) 204-1700 to order or email me for details

"Success doesn't compile itself and arrive as a binary pre-packaged for your
OS on a free CD that's been mailed to you by God.  Unless you do the work,
you don't get it."

6,000+ ebooks free at http://www.gutenberg.net




--__--__--

Message: 4
Subject: Re: [OS:N:] Re: Linux in schools (cont'd)
From: Brent Fox <bfox redhat com>
To: open-source-now-list redhat com
Date: 09 Jan 2003 17:54:33 -0500
Reply-To: open-source-now-list redhat com

On Thu, 2003-01-09 at 17:15, Todd Warner wrote:
> We're getting there. Who knows, maybe we'll just continue to creep into
> everyone's desktop. Someday someone may say... "I can't really remember
> when I started using this Linux stuff." *shrug*

It will creep onto people's desktop when the OEMs preload Linux.  I read
a pretty compelling article this weekend that explains why they
eventually will.  The gist of it was that everyone agrees that the PC is
rapidly becoming a commodity, yet it can never truly be a commodity
until it is running a commodity OS, which Windows is not.  There will be
a point at which the machines get so cheap that OEM's cannot afford to
give Microsoft a cut and still turn a profit themselves.  It has nothing
to do with freedom or open source...just dollars and cents.

Look at
http://www.smb.compaq.com/dstore/ctobases.asp?ProductLineId=429&FamilyId=125
7&c=HPSMBProd_D315businesspc&n=D_I_DR_X_T_x_Right_Graphic&t=ad&r=HP_SMBProd_
O

With the economy being what it is, does the Windows XP Pro with Office
XP Pro box at $848 really stand a chance against the Windows XP Home and
no Office box at $539 and the Linux box at $534?  How long until people
look at that and say, gee, the Linux box is basically the same price as
the XP Home box but I get an office suite with Linux?

The OEMs are in an unending price war with each other and they'll do
anything to drive down their costs of making each machine.  Windows and
Office are the only components that they can't drive down the cost of
(in fact they go up), so they are ultimately forced to look for other
options.  It's already happening.

Cheers,
   Brent





--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "ekunin" <ekunin snet net>
To: <open-source-now-list redhat com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:39:39 -0500
Subject: [OS:N:] Re: Linux in Schools (cont'd)
Reply-To: open-source-now-list redhat com

Rightly or wrongly I sense hostility in some posts. One fellow put me on his
"kill list". I'm not sure what that is, but it doesn't sound friendly. I
guess in all this time, I haven't made myself clear.

1. I favor Linux and open source. The implications of open source are
cooperative, not competitive, but we don't have to get into that. M$ must be
overcome and Linux is the way to do it.

2. Going to the mainstream by way of schools strikes me as a good move. As I
have said, I believe Linux will eventually triumph. The question is whether
we can speed up the process. We agree on the goal (end) we disagree on the
means to that end.

Jeremy mentioned people who tweak their cars by reprogramming the computer
chips that control the engine. Read an article yesterday about a fellow who
gets 500 horsepower from a 4 cylinder Honda Civic engine. Goes from zero to
60 in 3 seconds. Impressive, but Jeremy does not take his apt anology far
enough. My wife drives a Civic and neither of us has the slightest desire to
mess with its computer chips. I do not think Honda automobiles would be as
popular as they are if there were a Debian Honda, Red Hat Honda, SuS Honda,
Mandrake Honda-you get the idea. I haven't taken a survey, but I suspect
more than 90% of the people who buy Hondas want to turn the key and drive
off the lot. This does not in any way limit those few who want to add a
speed chip. The Linux we try to take mainstream should be the best and
easiest Linux we (everyone-not only Red Hat) can produce and there should be
just be one of it.

Getting Linux into schools has other problems exemplified by the high school
junior who cannot persuade his teachers to let him install Linux. Linux is
egalitarian which doesn't sit well in hierarchical school set ups. We need
to add functions and services to make it irresistible. I have some ideas on
the subject, but it puts the cart before the horse.

Often we avoid facing issues directly. For example, the discussion a short
while ago about the diversity that comes with affirmative action isn't about
diversity at all. It's about scarcity. No one objects to the diversity which
would result if there were enough educational positions to accomodate every
applicant, but there aren't. We have the lawsuit because when one gets
accepted, the other gets rejected. That has nothing to do with diversity.

As for car models in utopia, there might be more than one, but not many
more. Utopia implies equality. Car models often are status symbols, a means
to demonstrate inequality. There is such a demand for Hummers they can't
make them fast enough. Trouble with a Hummer as status symbol is that you
have to drive it. Living to impress others is tough work. Being rich isn't
all skittles and beer.

Ed Kunin
http://www.egalite.com





--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:58:50 +0000
From: JT Moree <moreejt pcxperience com>
To: open-source-now-list redhat com
Subject: Re: [OS:N:] Need Your Help Friends!
Reply-To: open-source-now-list redhat com

for #3, here in St. Louis the local Linux community and LUG sponsor many
events for people to be introduced to OS and linux.  There are numerous
monthly meetings that range from programming to general technical help
to presentations.  In addition, we also have highly publicized
installfests about 2 times per year.

narm wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
> I need your help friends ... I am writing a paper about Open Source
> Software and Linux in general, and also about Open Source Software and
> e-governments so please if you can help don't wait.
>
> How can you help?
> -----------------
> 1- Send me any information regarding e-government and Linux which
> governments have switched to open source and Linux, and please include
> your references.
>
> 2- What is the main things that makes Open Source Software better than
> Closed Source Software for governments/e-governments.
>
> 3- How LUGs can introduce the Open Source concept to others who don't
> know about it, and how can a LUG help in educating the community about
> Linux and Open Source Software.
>
> Thank you
>
> Jordan LUG
> Basem Narmok
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by *MailScanner* <http://www.mailscanner.info/>, and is
> believed to be clean.



--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.




--__--__--

Message: 7
Subject: Re: [OS:N:] Re: Linux in Schools (cont'd)
From: Jens Hardings <jens hardings cl>
To: open-source-now-list redhat com
Organization:
Date: 10 Jan 2003 15:53:28 +0100
Reply-To: open-source-now-list redhat com


--=-UIYvJoZsLdUhW+73yUpl
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, 2003-01-10 at 14:39, ekunin wrote:
> Rightly or wrongly I sense hostility in some posts. One fellow put me on =
his
> "kill list". I'm not sure what that is, but it doesn't sound friendly. I
> guess in all this time, I haven't made myself clear.
>=20
> 1. I favor Linux and open source. The implications of open source are
> cooperative, not competitive, but we don't have to get into that. M$ must=
 be
> overcome and Linux is the way to do it.
>=20
> 2. Going to the mainstream by way of schools strikes me as a good move. A=
s I
> have said, I believe Linux will eventually triumph. The question is wheth=
er
> we can speed up the process. We agree on the goal (end) we disagree on th=
e
> means to that end.

I think this is exactly the point: we do not agree on the goal. It does
no good to substitute one monopoly with another. Ideally, I wouldn't
even care about what operating system or software anybody uses as long
as I can interact with them seamlesslly. Like now through the mail: I
have no idea and don't want nor need to know what operating system or
mail agent everybody on this list is using. That is why we have open
standards. It is a fact that it is easier to keep standards open by
using free software and formats, but that is about it.

On the other hand, you have an attitude that is typical of the ones that
see in Open Source of Free Software a good opportunity and immediatly
try to take the standard way of doing things (e.g. everything has to be
the same so that it works) into this new way of doing things. Linux did
not became popular because their developers or users wanted to take over
the world. It became popular because it gets the job done. Trying now to
force a standard recipe onto something that works precisely because it
is different in its conception doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

--=20
Jens.

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--__--__--

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:18:55 -0500
From: jkinz rcn com
To: open-source-now-list redhat com
Subject: Re: [OS:N:] Re: Linux in Schools (cont'd)
Reply-To: open-source-now-list redhat com

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 08:39:39AM -0500, ekunin wrote:
> Rightly or wrongly I sense hostility in some posts. One fellow put me on
his
> "kill list". I'm not sure what that is, but it doesn't sound friendly. I
> guess in all this time, I haven't made myself clear.

Oh, you've made yourself clear.  That's why so many people are
auto-filtering
you out of what they see from the list.

Well Ed, I'm not surprised that you don't know what "kill list" means.
You don't even know how to respond to email in an email list and clearly are
not interested in making any effort to educate yourself about this community
you have joined.

Your lack of effort to understand even the simplest cooperative standard
of behaviour used in email aptly demonstrates your self-centered perspective
on life.   Its not that you're an idiot, its just that you insist on
behaving
in a fashion that causes us to mistake you for one.  Perhaps its time to
consider a new perspective?  Or at least retiring from this list?

Not understanding how the open source environments and communities work
seems to be your main stock in trade as far as your participation
in this list goes.  Have you read ESR's documents on open source yet?
Until you gain at least a minimal understanding of how the open source
movement really works your posts here are just wasting people time
and bandwidth.

> enough. My wife drives a Civic and neither of us has the slightest desire
to
> mess with its computer chips. I do not think Honda automobiles would be as
> popular as they are if there were a Debian Honda, Red Hat Honda, SuS
Honda,
> Mandrake Honda-you get the idea.

Ed - you missed the point again, "automobile" is Linux, Honda is a
distribution.  So think "Ford Automobile", "Chevy Automobile", Honda
Automobile".  And notice the most people who buy these don't tweak them.
Just
as is the case with most computers sold today.  Very few people overclock or
casemod.  But they do want choices, and they have them.  Linux is giving the
world a whole set of new choices for the platform OS.

Oh - but choice and diversity don't fit in with your version of Utopia,
do they? (see Ed's next line below).

> As for car models in utopia, there might be more than one, but not many
> more. Utopia implies equality. Car models often are status symbols, a
means
> to demonstrate inequality. There is such a demand for Hummers they can't

Heh, I wonder how long it would take you to decide that you will tell
each person which model they have to drive.

Your version of utopia is eerily reminiscent of the societies described by
Huxley and Orwell.  the laughable part of this is that you can't see that.

Every human on the planet, even identical twins, are different and unequal.
Your version of utopia will never exist.  For that I am incredibly thankful.

Basically Ed, you don't get it.  And the reason you don't get it is because
the understanding would conflict with your agenda.  Opening yourself
to understanding how Open Source truly works would destroy your current
belief system.  Since you can't accept that you keep trying to re-make
Open Source into something that will fit your utopia agenda.  But your
utopia agenda is opposite to the nature of Linux and Open Source.

Don't despair, there are other versions of utopia which do work with Open
Source and they are advancing themselves as part of the Open Source trend.

Those versions of utopia allow people to be individuals, make their own
decisions and have real choices.


--
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research,  Hudson, MA.  "jkinz rcn com"
"jkinz ultranet com" copyright 2002.  Use is restricted. Any use is an
acceptance of the offer at http://users.rcn.com/jkinz/policy.html.





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