[PatternFly] Browser support update

Wed May 23 06:21:58 UTC 2018

@stian,
IMO the first thing to do is to encourage users to use a recent browser,
especially if they use tools that affect the security of their users.
And see if the number decrease.

@stan
5% of users for 30% more code and 30% more development time. Is not it
important to bring value first to the remaining 99% before?
I mean, for me it's more important to release a version of patternfly-next
quickly to get feedback from the community than to manage all browsers just
in case.
Of course this is only my opinion :)

Cheers

On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Andres Galante <agalante at redhat.com>
wrote:

> I don't think there are pollyfills for css variables the way we are using
> them or grids. But we can look into that.
>
> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 5:40 PM, Stan Silvert <ssilvert at redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/22/2018 4:23 PM, Andres Galante wrote:
>>
>> Leslie has been meeting with different team to take this decisions based
>> on their requirements and roadmaps. She is on vacation this week so we can
>> probably continue this discussing next week.
>>
>> Here is my reasoning:
>>
>> IE11 is a burden, not only because we can't use css variables and grid
>> among other modern CSS features but also because it increases the time of
>> development to write fallbacks and testing and it makes the codebase harder
>> to maintain.
>>
>> Patternfly next beta will out during the next 6 month-ish and a stable
>> version probably by the end of the year or beginning of the next. By the
>> time we have a stable version and projects start adopting it, it's a safe
>> assumption that IE11 will be irrelevant.
>>
>> Does it make sense?
>>
>> I think your reasoning makes perfect sense.
>>
>> On the other hand, we can't just ignore 2% to 7% of our user base.  Even
>> if IE11 is down to 1% of the market, we will still need a solution.   If 1
>> out of 100 users can't use your web site then you are in trouble.
>>
>> If there is an effective pollyfill available then I think that would be
>> good enough for us.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 5:01 PM, Stan Silvert <ssilvert at redhat.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe we can load a polyfill when we detect IE11?
>>>
>>> Would this work for all the new features you plan to use Andres?
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/22/2018 3:31 PM, Stian Thorgersen wrote:
>>>
>>> On keycloak.org we have ~5% on IE11 this year. Of IE users 95% of our
>>> users are on IE11.
>>>
>>> Looking at https://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php there's 2.81% for
>>> IE11. On http://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/desktop/wo
>>> rldwide it says 7.17%, which I assume is mostly IE11. They don't give
>>> details on individual versions as far as I can see.
>>>
>>> From my understanding there's still a lot of folks on Windows XP in the
>>> world and a good proportion has not updated to Edge. I remember how long it
>>> took to get rid of IE6.
>>>
>>> For RH-SSO and Keycloak we have login pages as well as the account
>>> management console that both should be available to most users. Available
>>> is subjective of course, but if there's CSS variables used which is not
>>> supported at all on IE11 I would assume it would look very bad on IE11?
>>>
>>> On 22 May 2018 at 21:05, Andres Galante <agalante at redhat.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Stian,
>>>>
>>>> How much of that IE traffic is IE11?
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 3:11 PM, Stian Thorgersen <sthorger at redhat.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> According to http://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/desktop/wo
>>>>> rldwide
>>>>>
>>>>> IE11 is still more popular than Edge.
>>>>>
>>>>> I get the same numbers from keycloak.org.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 22 May 2018 at 20:07, Stian Thorgersen <sthorger at redhat.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is the world really ready to move on from IE11? For admin facing apps
>>>>>> I don't see it as a problem, but what about end-user facing apps?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18 May 2018 at 10:53, Guillaume Vincent <gvincent at redhat.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> this is a good news, thank you patternfly !
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 1:22 PM, Andres Galante <agalante at redhat.com
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Stan,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes! it means we'll go back to use CSS variables following the same 2
>>>>>>>> tier variable system
>>>>>>>> <https://css-tricks.com/theming-with-variables-globals-and-locals/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We'll also be able to use CSS grids to build layouts :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 8:14 AM, Stan Silvert <ssilvert at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm quite happy to ditch IE11.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does that mean PatternFly Next will use CSS variables instead of
>>>>>>>>> preprocessor variables?  Eliminating the preprocessor will make me double
>>>>>>>>> happy!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For our app we want to allow an administrator to do simple theme
>>>>>>>>> changes from the admin console.  This gets really easy to implement if the
>>>>>>>>> app doesn't need preprocessing.  If we have to use a preprocessor then it
>>>>>>>>> becomes extremely complicated.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Stan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/16/2018 4:55 PM, Leslie Hinson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hey Fliers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At the last PatternFly Next update, the topic of IE11 browser
>>>>>>>>> support came up. Specifically, the question on whether or not we needed to
>>>>>>>>> support it moving forward.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a result, we wanted to follow up to ensure we understood
>>>>>>>>> PatternFly users' browser support roadmap. From what we've been able to
>>>>>>>>> gather, we learned that the majority of PatternFly users that are
>>>>>>>>> interested in migrating to PatternFly-Next are comfortable proceeding
>>>>>>>>> without IE11 support moving forward. We will continue to have PF3 for any
>>>>>>>>> users that still require that level of support, however we don't believe
>>>>>>>>> that IE11 support is worth the cost for this next major version.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone that raised this concern as well as those that
>>>>>>>>> provided input to help us make this decision.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Leslie Hinson
>>>>>>>>> PatternFly Lead, UXD
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> PatternFly mailing listPatternFly at redhat.comhttps://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/patternfly
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> PatternFly mailing list
>>>>>>>>> PatternFly at redhat.com
>>>>>>>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/patternfly
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> PatternFly mailing list
>>>>>>>> PatternFly at redhat.com
>>>>>>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/patternfly
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guillaume  Vincent
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Senior FrontEnd Engineer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> gvincent at redhat.com
>>>>>>> <https://red.ht/sig>
>>>>>>> TRIED. TESTED. TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

-- 

Guillaume  Vincent

Senior FrontEnd Engineer

gvincent at redhat.com
<https://red.ht/sig>
TRIED. TESTED. TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>
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