[PatternFly] Browser support update

Wed May 23 06:28:08 UTC 2018

On 23 May 2018 at 08:21, Guillaume Vincent <gvincent at redhat.com> wrote:

> @stian,
> IMO the first thing to do is to encourage users to use a recent browser,
> especially if they use tools that affect the security of their users.
> And see if the number decrease.
>

If we where only talking about direct Keycloak users there wouldn't be a
problem. However, we are talking about users of our users. Keycloak
provides login and account management pages on behalf of application
developers and as such will be exposed to "regular" folks that do not
always upgrade. Often public facing websites (for example https://zwift.com/
uses Keycloak).

I believe that makes us different to most other projects within Red Hat.

>
> @stan
> 5% of users for 30% more code and 30% more development time. Is not it
> important to bring value first to the remaining 99% before?
> I mean, for me it's more important to release a version of
> patternfly-next quickly to get feedback from the community than to manage
> all browsers just in case.
> Of course this is only my opinion :)
>
> Cheers
>
>
> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Andres Galante <agalante at redhat.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I don't think there are pollyfills for css variables the way we are
>> using them or grids. But we can look into that.
>>
>> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 5:40 PM, Stan Silvert <ssilvert at redhat.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/22/2018 4:23 PM, Andres Galante wrote:
>>>
>>> Leslie has been meeting with different team to take this decisions based
>>> on their requirements and roadmaps. She is on vacation this week so we can
>>> probably continue this discussing next week.
>>>
>>> Here is my reasoning:
>>>
>>> IE11 is a burden, not only because we can't use css variables and grid
>>> among other modern CSS features but also because it increases the time of
>>> development to write fallbacks and testing and it makes the codebase harder
>>> to maintain.
>>>
>>> Patternfly next beta will out during the next 6 month-ish and a stable
>>> version probably by the end of the year or beginning of the next. By the
>>> time we have a stable version and projects start adopting it, it's a safe
>>> assumption that IE11 will be irrelevant.
>>>
>>> Does it make sense?
>>>
>>> I think your reasoning makes perfect sense.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, we can't just ignore 2% to 7% of our user base.  Even
>>> if IE11 is down to 1% of the market, we will still need a solution.   If 1
>>> out of 100 users can't use your web site then you are in trouble.
>>>
>>> If there is an effective pollyfill available then I think that would be
>>> good enough for us.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 5:01 PM, Stan Silvert <ssilvert at redhat.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Maybe we can load a polyfill when we detect IE11?
>>>>
>>>> Would this work for all the new features you plan to use Andres?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5/22/2018 3:31 PM, Stian Thorgersen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On keycloak.org we have ~5% on IE11 this year. Of IE users 95% of our
>>>> users are on IE11.
>>>>
>>>> Looking at https://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php there's 2.81% for
>>>> IE11. On http://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/desktop/wo
>>>> rldwide it says 7.17%, which I assume is mostly IE11. They don't give
>>>> details on individual versions as far as I can see.
>>>>
>>>> From my understanding there's still a lot of folks on Windows XP in the
>>>> world and a good proportion has not updated to Edge. I remember how long it
>>>> took to get rid of IE6.
>>>>
>>>> For RH-SSO and Keycloak we have login pages as well as the account
>>>> management console that both should be available to most users. Available
>>>> is subjective of course, but if there's CSS variables used which is not
>>>> supported at all on IE11 I would assume it would look very bad on IE11?
>>>>
>>>> On 22 May 2018 at 21:05, Andres Galante <agalante at redhat.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Stian,
>>>>>
>>>>> How much of that IE traffic is IE11?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 3:11 PM, Stian Thorgersen <sthorger at redhat.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> According to http://gs.statcounter.com/b
>>>>>> rowser-market-share/desktop/worldwide
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IE11 is still more popular than Edge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I get the same numbers from keycloak.org.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 22 May 2018 at 20:07, Stian Thorgersen <sthorger at redhat.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is the world really ready to move on from IE11? For admin facing
>>>>>>> apps I don't see it as a problem, but what about end-user facing apps?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 18 May 2018 at 10:53, Guillaume Vincent <gvincent at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> this is a good news, thank you patternfly !
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 1:22 PM, Andres Galante <
>>>>>>>> agalante at redhat.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Stan,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes! it means we'll go back to use CSS variables following the
>>>>>>>>> same 2 tier variable system
>>>>>>>>> <https://css-tricks.com/theming-with-variables-globals-and-locals/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We'll also be able to use CSS grids to build layouts :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 8:14 AM, Stan Silvert <ssilvert at redhat.com
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm quite happy to ditch IE11.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Does that mean PatternFly Next will use CSS variables instead of
>>>>>>>>>> preprocessor variables?  Eliminating the preprocessor will make me double
>>>>>>>>>> happy!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For our app we want to allow an administrator to do simple theme
>>>>>>>>>> changes from the admin console.  This gets really easy to implement if the
>>>>>>>>>> app doesn't need preprocessing.  If we have to use a preprocessor then it
>>>>>>>>>> becomes extremely complicated.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Stan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/16/2018 4:55 PM, Leslie Hinson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hey Fliers
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At the last PatternFly Next update, the topic of IE11 browser
>>>>>>>>>> support came up. Specifically, the question on whether or not we needed to
>>>>>>>>>> support it moving forward.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As a result, we wanted to follow up to ensure we understood
>>>>>>>>>> PatternFly users' browser support roadmap. From what we've been able to
>>>>>>>>>> gather, we learned that the majority of PatternFly users that are
>>>>>>>>>> interested in migrating to PatternFly-Next are comfortable proceeding
>>>>>>>>>> without IE11 support moving forward. We will continue to have PF3 for any
>>>>>>>>>> users that still require that level of support, however we don't believe
>>>>>>>>>> that IE11 support is worth the cost for this next major version.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone that raised this concern as well as those that
>>>>>>>>>> provided input to help us make this decision.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Leslie Hinson
>>>>>>>>>> PatternFly Lead, UXD
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> PatternFly mailing listPatternFly at redhat.comhttps://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/patternfly
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> PatternFly mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> PatternFly at redhat.com
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/patternfly
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> PatternFly mailing list
>>>>>>>>> PatternFly at redhat.com
>>>>>>>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/patternfly
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Guillaume  Vincent
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Senior FrontEnd Engineer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> gvincent at redhat.com
>>>>>>>> <https://red.ht/sig>
>>>>>>>> TRIED. TESTED. TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Guillaume  Vincent
>
> Senior FrontEnd Engineer
>
> gvincent at redhat.com
> <https://red.ht/sig>
> TRIED. TESTED. TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listman.redhat.com/archives/patternfly/attachments/20180523/d8b691e9/attachment.htm>