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Episode 22

How Does Data Help Shape Movies?


Show Notes

Movies are culturally important. They transform language and communication. Motion pictures present fantasy worlds we can get lost in, helping us understand the world differently. Discussing data and movies can make the fantasy seem…a little less fantastic. It can feel sterile, mass produced, and devoid of imagination. 

But data is vital, both for those behind the camera and those sitting in theaters (or at home).  This episode will cover some ways data science and machine learning can inform filmmaking, from conception to post-production.


00:00 - Kim Huang 

Angela, Brent - let's play a game.

00:02 - Brent Simoneaux 

Oh boy.

00:03 - Angela Andrews 

I'm game!

00:05 - Kim Huang 

I'm going to read you a quote from a movie and you're going to guess the movie.

00:12 - Angela Andrews 

I love this game.

00:13 - Brent Simoneaux 

I can already tell you, I'm going to lose.

00:17 - Kim Huang 

Okay, okay. There's no winners or losers here. I just want to illustrate a point. Okay. Ready?

00:23 - Angela Andrews 


00:24 - Brent Simoneaux 


00:25 - Kim Huang 

"I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse."

00:27 - Brent Simoneaux 

The Godfather.

00:28 - Angela Andrews 

The Godfather.

00:29 - Kim Huang 

All right. Good. Okay. Let's try: "There's no place like home."

00:36 - Angela Andrews 

Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz.

00:38 - Brent Simoneaux 


00:40 - Kim Huang 

"Go ahead, make my day."

00:42 - Brent Simoneaux 

The Terminator.

00:44 - Angela Andrews 

I was biting my tongue but-

00:47 - Brent Simoneaux 

Was that right?

00:47 - Kim Huang 

No, it was not right, Brent.

00:48 - Brent Simoneaux 

It wasn't right?

00:50 - Angela Andrews 

No. Dirty Harry.

00:53 - Kim Huang 

Yes. Dirty Harry, Clint Eastwood.

00:55 - Brent Simoneaux 

Wait, that wasn't Terminator?

00:56 - Angela Andrews 


00:56 - Kim Huang 


00:57 - Brent Simoneaux 

Why did I think that was Terminator?

00:59 - Angela Andrews 

It's Terminator-esque. Same bravado, I guess. I don't know.

01:03 - Kim Huang 

Here's one: "Hasta la vista, baby."

01:06 - Angela Andrews 

There that's yours, Brent.

01:07 - Brent Simoneaux 

Oh, Terminator.

01:08 - Kim Huang 

There we go.

01:09 - Brent Simoneaux 

That was the Terminator?

01:10 - Kim Huang 


01:10 - Brent Simoneaux 


01:11 - Angela Andrews 

Yes, it was.

01:15 - Kim Huang 

So do you know why I wanted to play this little game?

01:17 - Brent Simoneaux 

I actually have no idea.

01:19 - Angela Andrews 

But I loved it.

01:21 - Kim Huang 

It's my favorite time of the year. It's summer movie season.

01:26 - Brent Simoneaux 

Oh yeah.

01:27 - Angela Andrews 

It's the most wonderful time of the year.

01:29 - Kim Huang

Yes. Especially for someone like me. I love movies. I watch movies all the time. They have important meaning to me. For many people, they have a lot of significance. A lot of cultural significance, even. Movies can transcend different cultures and different languages, even. There's so much to be said about how film connects us all together.

01:53 - Brent Simoneaux 

Connects us all and also helps us understand ourselves.

01:57 - Angela Andrews 

Yes. It's a powerful tool.

01:59 - Kim Huang 


02:03 - Kim Huang 

So, I wanted to talk today about data science and filmmaking.

02:08 - Brent Simoneaux 

I mean, that's interesting because I don't typically think of data science and movies together.

02:14 - Kim Huang 

I understand that and it even feels sterile or lacking in creativity to talk about data and film but I'm happy to tell you that there are some amazing ways that data science can inform the movies we watch.

02:30 - Angela Andrews 

Really? Okay. Well, what do you have for us?

02:33 - Brent Simoneaux 

Let's do it.

02:36 - Brent Simoneaux 

This is Compiler, an original podcast from Red Hat.

02:40 - Angela Andrews 

We are your hosts.

02:41 - Brent Simoneaux 

I'm Brent Simoneaux.

02:43 - Angela Andrews 

And I'm Angela Andrews.

02:44 - Brent Simoneaux 

We're here to break down questions from the tech industry, big, small, and well, sometimes strange.

02:52 - Angela Andrews 

Each episode, we go out in search of answers from red hatters and people they're connected to.

02:58 - Brent Simoneaux 

In today's episode, how does data science shape what we see in movies?

03:06 - Angela Andrews 

Producer Kim Huang is here to help us out.

03:10 - Kim Huang 

First, I spoke with Madeline Di Nonno, president and CEO of the Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media. She was kind enough to speak with me and she has a lot of experience with data science and filmmaking. She says, "Data science is important in the institute's work."

03:28 - Madeline Di Nonno 

Data has always been the key for us in terms of raising awareness, identifying unconscious bias in content, and also using it for advocacy. We are a data driven advocacy group and we have found that has been the best way for us to have a dialogue in a way that is not defensive. Having the data, it's the facts, it's not opinion, it's not theory, and it has really helped us not only make the case, the social imperative, the business imperative, but also has allowed us to measure progress.

04:10 - Angela Andrews 

Wait, Kim. Tell us about the institute.

04:13 - Kim Huang 

The institute was founded in the early 2000s by actress Geena Davis. I'm sure a lot of people know who she is.

04:18 - Angela Andrews 

Oh yeah.

04:19 - Brent Simoneaux 


04:19 - Kim Huang 

They conduct studies in research to adjust the biases and what we see on screen and foster more inclusion in media.

04:27 - Brent Simoneaux 

Oh. So they're really interested in representation on the screen. And so, they're trying to do this in a quantitative way so they're having people watch these films and then tally up?

04:41 - Kim Huang 


04:41 - Brent Simoneaux 

Like who's on screen and how much they're speaking, is that right?

04:44 - Kim Huang 

Yes, exactly.

04:46 - Angela Andrews 

That's interesting. This does sound like this is prime for some sort of data science because the way that you just explained it, it really says we're looking at data points.

04:57 - Kim Huang 


04:57 - Angela Andrews 

And how do we add those data points up? To your point, when humans are doing it, that has its own bias but let's be clear, machines are built by humans.

05:08 - Kim Huang 

That's true.

05:08 - Brent Simoneaux 


05:09 - Angela Andrews 

That does also, in turn, there is bias inherently in those as well.

05:13 - Brent Simoneaux 


05:14 - Kim Huang 

Yes, and we're going to talk a little bit about that later on because I'm glad you brought that up. In 2013, the Geena Davis Institute was approached by Google. Together, they wanted to see if machine learning could help them dig deeper in research.

05:32 - Madeline Di Nonno 

Together we developed what became GD-IQ which, hmm, what does the GD stand for out there? It's Geena Davis Inclusion Quotient and essentially what it allowed us to do is identify not only how many female characters there were on screen but their screen and speaking time. That was something that could not be measured by humans accurately. GD-IQ is a hybrid methodology so it combines machine learning and also, we have a team of human expert coders that provide the other dimensions that we look at in terms of race ethnicity, LGBTQIA, disabilities, age 50 plus, and body type.

06:19 - Brent Simoneaux 

So what did they find out?

06:23 - Kim Huang 

It's one thing, right? If you have a bunch of people or even an algorithm there to process how many people are on screen at one time or how many people are speaking or who they're speaking to even, right? What you want is a robust picture so you have human expert analysts alongside a sophisticated algorithm that was built specifically to count speaking time, amount of being seen on camera for your face and not just your body for example, the different people who are speaking, how old are they, what do they look like, how are they dressed.

06:58 - Madeline Di Nonno 

When we looked at female characters from 2016 to 2020, we saw that female character screen time increased by 8.4% and female character speaking time increased by 7%. It's one thing to count how many female characters there are. It's another thing when you're looking at a screen, it's like, do they have the same presence as their male counterparts? And all of that has been possible because of having the GD-IQ.

07:32 - Kim Huang 

The introduction of data science and machine learning for the Geena Davis Institute strengthened the case that so many people have made for decades, movies have a lot of problems with representation.

07:44 - Angela Andrews 

It's interesting that this institute took this on because since the beginning of movie making, when characters weren't even played by the same race or the same gender, there was so much misrepresentation in movies. Now, we've come to 2022 and we're hearing that, "Yes, it is making improvements and those improvements are happening very incrementally." We all see it. We all know it. Every TV show that we turn on and especially if you're in the minority, you really feel it because you never see yourself, you don't hear yourself, but you're always consuming this content that is never representative of who you are.

08:26 - Brent Simoneaux 

Yeah. That is so true. I mean, I remember some of the first times that I saw a queer person on screen. I don't know. I can't tell you how transformative that was for me.

08:38 - Angela Andrews 

I believe it. I believe it.

08:40 - Kim Huang 

Yeah, totally.

08:41 - Angela Andrews 

I'm speaking for myself and probably speaking for Kim, those things happen to us as well.

08:46 - Kim Huang 


08:46 - Brent Simoneaux 

Well, like she was saying earlier, having this data helps us have, I think, conversations that are grounded in fact and not just assertions because so often, these types of conversations can get overheated in some ways.

09:02 - Angela Andrews 

For sure.

09:02 - Kim Huang 


09:03 - Angela Andrews 


09:03 - Brent Simoneaux 

And they turn out to be not productive.

09:07 - Kim Huang 


09:10 - Brent Simoneaux 

Kim, help us out here though. We're talking about how data science can help in the creation of films but it sounds like the work that they're doing is analyzing films that already exist. What's the connection there?

09:26 - Kim Huang 

Yeah. That's a really good point. I was also curious and it turns out that Madeline had a lot to say about that.

09:34 - Madeline Di Nonno 

When we started socializing GD-IQ back in 2014 to 2015, it works on audio and video and it's a great product but it's been used more as an auditing tool. It's not something that is being used for the most part during the creative process and it's a great way to measure change. We were really looking for an intervention. How can we be preventative? How can we help our partners be able to assess content before they moved into the creative process of casting, of producing. Our partners, led by Dr. Shri Narayanan at the SAIL Laboratory USC Viterbi, have a patented text tool IP. Geena and I approached them and said, "We want to create Spellcheck for Bias."

10:29 - Angela Andrews 

What is Spellcheck for Bias?

10:31 - Madeline Di Nonno 

Spellcheck for Bias is a combined methodology where it is led by our research department and also incorporates some machine learning into it and it's a way for us to look at who is showing up and how are they showing up. For the most part, most writers don't describe every single character that is contributing to dialogue, that's just Script Writing 101. This allows us to examine all the characters that are contributing dialogue in a show, in a movie. It's a way for us to organize them and also walk them through these six dimension tests. We look at gender, we look at race ethnicity, we look at disability, we look at age, we look at body type, we look at LGBTQIA, and it's a way to very quickly assess the type of characters that are in a script and if they're organized or described. It allows the creative people to get an easy assessment and then decide what they would like to do without invading the storyline, without invading the authentic truth of the story, and the storyteller.

11:46 - Angela Andrews 

This Spellcheck for Bias is actually an application that runs through a script…

11:52 - Kim Huang 


11:53 - Angela Andrews 

And it uses the dimension tests to look at the characters in all of the biases that could be in there. I just think that's pretty interesting. Like she said in here, "We're not going to go in here and mess with the story but we're looking at the script and we're saying, "Okay, this is what you have." Does this look right to you? I mean, I guess that's probably the question because it's an audit and it's not very preventative.

12:20 - Brent Simoneaux 


12:20 - Angela Andrews 

If you do it this way, it becomes a more preventative process and it's like, "Oh, we're skewing too far the other way." It could be totally unintentional but until you bring these issues up, again and again, they tend to get overlooked. So this is cool that you get to know these things before you start shooting and you can fix them.

12:41 - Brent Simoneaux 

Yeah, she's right. So many times, tools like this are used for auditing purposes and I love that flip to say how can they also use them for generative purposes. Like how can they help us create better work, not just assess work better?

13:00 - Kim Huang 

Yes, exactly. Madeline says the ultimate goal the institute has with all of the work that it's doing is to show equal representation on screen that's comparable with real life populations. But if I could play devil's advocate for a second, movies aren't real. Why do we have to see on screen what we see in real life?

13:25 - Kim Huang 

People like Madeline believe that what we talked about earlier on the show is true: Movies have a significant impact on culture. And a fantasy world is an escape but it also has only a few personal stakes, if that, for a person who's watching it. Challenging our biases within that environment could be easier than trying to do so in real life.

13:49 - Madeline Di Nonno 

We're talking about fiction. We're talking about the world of make believe. Clearly, unless there is something factual from history, there's no reason why in the 21st century, we shouldn't be a parity now. I mean, parity should be the low hanging fruit, not even something we want to ascend to. Our goal is to really, at least, achieve parity and then go beyond it. Hopefully, we'd love to be out of business. That is the ultimate goal.

14:26 - Brent Simoneaux 

Why do you think the film industry is taking inclusion so seriously? Why now?

14:33 - Kim Huang 

Well, Madeline says it's just as much about business sense as it is about common sense.

14:38 - Madeline Di Nonno 

There's the social imperative which we've been talking to a lot but there is a commercial and business imperative. We have found that when you have diverse content that has leads and co-leads that are representative of BIPOC and many other groups, it will make more money.

14:58 - Brent Simoneaux 

Put my people on screen, we can make you money.

15:00 - Angela Andrews 


15:01 - Kim Huang 

Exactly, and it's not just conjecture either. A study that the institute conducted in 2015 examined the highest grossing movies of that year. They found that movies with female leads grossed 15.8% more than ones with male and movies with both male and female leads grossed 23.5% more than movies with just one or the other gender in the lead.

15:25 - Brent Simoneaux 


15:25 - Angela Andrews 

That is the pockets right there. That's literally proof positive. This matters.

15:34 - Brent Simoneaux 


15:34 - Kim Huang 

There are tons of papers and reports that I could cite but they all paint a similar picture. Data science is helping to make that picture more vivid and more actionable but there are ways that data can inform the production process as well. I wanted to know more about how data can affect the technology of modern cinema. This time, I wanted to know more about data science in the production process. After a long search and a lot of emailing people, I found James Blevins. He works in post production on a number of different shows and projects. The majority of which he could not tell me about because of NDA, but just to give you an idea about the type of projects that he works on…

16:24 - James Blevins 

Most recently, I was the post production supervisor on a show called The Mandalorian and that's the latest feather in the cap.

16:36 - Angela Andrews 


16:38 - Kim Huang 


16:39 - Angela Andrews 

Okay. Okay.

16:41 - Brent Simoneaux 

What is Mandalorian?

16:43 - Kim Huang 

Oh gosh.

16:44 - Angela Andrews 

It is everything, Brent. It is everything.

16:47 - Kim Huang 

Brent, it is a Star War.

16:48 - Brent Simoneaux 

Oh, it's a Star War. Okay.

16:50 - Kim Huang 

With quite possibly the cutest fictional character in recent memory.

16:54 - Angela Andrews 


16:57 - Kim Huang 

But before he could bring Baby Yoda into our homes and our hearts-

17:01 - Brent Simoneaux 

Oh, that's where Baby Yoda comes from.

17:03 - Kim Huang 


17:03 - Angela Andrews 


17:05 - Kim Huang 

James spent four and a half years at Netflix.

17:09 - Brent Simoneaux 


17:09 - Kim Huang 

Just as it was beginning to roll out its original programming. But in the short time that James was at Netflix, the company scaled its original programming from 8 shows to 600-

17:23 - Brent Simoneaux 


17:24 - Kim Huang 


17:25 - Angela Andrews 


17:25 - Kim Huang 

A year.

17:26 - Brent Simoneaux 

Yeah. They went from Orange Is The New Black and House of Cards to all kinds of stuff in no time flat.

17:33 - Kim Huang 


17:35 - Angela Andrews 


17:35 - James Blevins 

We really shattered our own expectations. I think after about my third year there, I started changing the way I approached my work by saying, "Well, 600 originals. You know what? There are people who work on 600 things a year all over the place. It's really just 600 things." You just need to wrap your head around that this is really not that difficult if you can just move your own internal decimal point and start thinking about these things. It's not, "Oh my god, it's 600 things." It's, "It's only 600 things."

18:12 - Angela Andrews 


18:13 - Brent Simoneaux 

Oh, just move your decimal point.

18:15 - Angela Andrews 

Okay. Is that how we're doing that now? Got you.

18:18 - Kim Huang 

What a mindset. I wish… on my best day.

18:21 - Angela Andrews 

How do you move from 6 to 60 to 600? How does that scale happen?

18:26 - Brent Simoneaux 


18:27 - Kim Huang 

Good question. When I asked James about how Netflix uses data to scale up their production to that extent, he was very tight-lipped. It's kind of the secret sauce of Netflix and other streaming services as well, right? So he couldn't say very much but he did illustrate something really important about how Netflix realized that the power of transforming its service lied in its own data. The data that it had, that was being generated by its own customers at the time and how valuable that was.

19:01 - James Blevins 

I think what became really clear was the differentiator between what was widely understood and published information. And then, there was the data that you owned yourself and one could become one's own Nielsen and that was amazing to watch and how it affected deal making.

19:20 - Angela Andrews 

To be clear, he's talking about Netflix becoming their own Nielsen rating service. Meaning they have the data of what their customers are watching and they can use that to scale and see where the wind is blowing.

19:33 - Brent Simoneaux 


19:33 - Kim Huang 

Right. That's kind of become, I think, a business model for a lot of streaming services since then but Netflix was the first in that space.

19:41 - Angela Andrews 

Data is king.

19:43 - Brent Simoneaux 

Yeah. I mean, you're sitting on a whole mine of first party data. You have a lot of that data already. What do you need Nielsen for?

19:52 - Kim Huang 


19:52 - Angela Andrews 


19:53 - Kim Huang 


19:57 - Kim Huang 

When we think of big budget films, the ones that are coming to theaters and streaming services in the next few months, it's easy to think of big workstations, high powered computers that render special effects. James says that all of that is about to change.

20:14 - James Blevins 

We really shouldn't care about whether or not we have a fast enough box on our desktop. We should just wonder whether or not we have access to compute, right? And know how much compute we need and... There's a whole economy around all of that, that's happening right now. Well, I think when you're talking data, you're talking about compute.

20:32 - Angela Andrews 


20:33 - Kim Huang 

Yes. And where does that compute increasingly finding itself, Angela?

20:37 - Angela Andrews 

In the cloud.

20:38 - Kim Huang 

That's right.

20:40 - Angela Andrews 

That's why we're not worrying about those big old clunky workstations and everyone had to do their rendering. No; it's a service now. Just offload it.

20:48 - Kim Huang 

That's right.

20:49 - Angela Andrews 

And you still keep moving forward so you're not bogged down. I love how we're tying all of these little tech threads together. I love how we do this in this show.

20:59 - Brent Simoneaux 

Oh yeah. I mean, I think about the transition from physical film to digital filmmaking and then I guess there's a lot higher quality of filmmaking now in terms of like 4K and HD.

21:17 - Kim Huang 

Some of the issues with filmmaking do have relationships with translating them into high-def, HD, and then from HD to 4K movies. Especially ones made using an older technology were simply not made to be seen on our very new, very crisp screens that we look at movies with now at home. So in post production, people like James use machine learning to scale up visuals.

21:46 - James Blevins 

So, I use those types of things like taking material that was at HD and bringing it up to 4K standards using those machine learning algorithms, sort of a no brainer. You are also looking at a world where all of your televisions are about to get really bright and really big. Turns out that the DPs of the world, when they were shooting, they did not expect this to be where their show was going to be presented to the audience. Their hero was a Dolby Vision theater, right? But even those Dolby Vision theaters are beginning to run things at 48 frames per second.

22:21 - Brent Simoneaux 

I don't think I understand those.

22:22 - Kim Huang 


22:23 - Brent Simoneaux 

Kim, can you help me out?

22:24 - Angela Andrews 

Yeah. You're going to have to bring this back down.

22:26 - Kim Huang 

Sure. DPs are directors of photography, what we know as cinematographers. In film, they're responsible for making sure that the visuals are exactly what the director is looking for, that everything on screen looks the way it's supposed to look.

22:42 - Brent Simoneaux 

I think what he's saying is that films that were made previously, they're meant to be shown in a theater on a screen but that's not necessarily how we're watching these movies anymore.

22:55 - Kim Huang 

Right. I'll let James explain and I'll come in a little bit after to put some context down. But a lot of that has to do with: how frame rate shows up in a movie theater is very different than how it shows up on your screen at home.

23:09 - James Blevins 

The reason is, because the manufacturers don't want people to look at the movies, the great premier pieces of content today, and see all of this judder. When you bring the contrast up and brightness up, you'll begin to see things that you never saw before and will make the DP squirm which is this latent imaging that your brain can't quite get rid of the old image and bring in the new. When you're looking at something really bright and high contrast, it's burned into the back of your ocular system and so you'll begin to see this uncomfortable judder.

23:44 - Angela Andrews 

Uncomfortable judder.

23:46 - Kim Huang 

Yes. Sometimes in older films on HD screens, you'll see jittery outlines around shapes and moving objects. That's what he means when he says judder.

23:58 - Angela Andrews 

Oh, okay. So, how else are they using data science?

24:03 - Kim Huang 

Data science already has a place in helping production technology keep pace with advancements in screen resolution, for example. What else?

24:13 - James Blevins 

We had this unpleasant experience in some of the more premier products that people tried to watch things running at very high frame rates and it looked too video-ish, right? There was that weird overly clear soap opera effect. Well, it turns out that if you compute the edge of every object in something with a lot of samples, say something that was shot up 48 frame per second or even 120 frame per second, if you analyze that material then you can then choose what your shutter angle is going to be in post and add the proper amount of blur that is to your satisfaction.

24:49 - James Blevins 

And so, some of this work's being done today and that will result in probably a master at 48 frames per second. And so, all of us are preparing for a world where creatives turn to the streamers of the world and say, "Hey, I thought you were filmmaker friendly." The theaters are showing our stuff at 48 fps and we made a scene by scene calculation about how we wanted our motion grade to look in post. What about you guys doing that for us? And so, I think that conversation is about to happen. That will require quite a bit of compute and quite a bit of, I mean, nothing insurmountable, a day's worth of compute on some... Right now those solutions are in boxes in rooms but those could easily be up in the cloud.

25:32 - Kim Huang 

So do you want me to break this down a little bit?

25:34 - Angela Andrews 


25:34 - Brent Simoneaux 

Yeah. I'm going to need that.

25:36 - Kim Huang 

All right. What James is saying when he's talking about the compute or he was talking about doing scene by scene calculations: streaming services, Hulu, Netflix, Apple TV, etc., they can present films and TV shows running at too high of a frame rate while the industry standard is much lower and gives that cinematic visual to it that people are used to and that directors and creators want. Machine learning and data science can do scene by scene calculations and help render these films at that industry standard for streaming services without too much human intervention i.e., a lot of post production work. That's how people get to see the movies that we want to see on these devices in a way that we're supposed to see them.

26:27 - Brent Simoneaux 

Kim, let's pull this all together. Our question for today's episode was "how does data science shape what we see in movies," so what's the answer?

26:40 - Kim Huang 

It already does shape a lot of what we see on screen in a lot of ways that are unexpected and are actually really exciting. I feel like the attitude of data being in film or being a part of the creative process makes people hesitate a bit. There's a lot of sources of data, of information for people to use more than ever before especially if you're making movies. It can be generated by other platforms like social media platforms or you can even buy from vendors like Nielsen. It can be captured at the source if you have your own streaming platform like streaming services that we have now that use complex datasets to present their customers with what they want when they want it.

27:26 - Kim Huang 

Also, it takes a lot of work to bring these films to life only for the experience of seeing them to become inconsistent if we want to, say, stream it at home or watch it on that brand new 4K TV. Data science can help us give those cinematic moments back to viewers and help cinematographers and directors present their exact vision agnostic of where or how we're watching it.

27:53 - Kim Huang 

Integrating data science does not have to feel sterile. It can empower independent creators making things for undiscovered audiences. It can help visually present movies in line with the creator's vision. It can also help curb biases of which stories get created and which go untold and it can help address those biases that affect who we see on camera and who is behind the camera as well. Those are all good things.

28:23 - Brent Simoneaux 


28:23 - Angela Andrews 

I love how this episode ties in with so many of our previous episodes and it's amazing to see just the advances that data science and technology as a whole is doing for the film industry. It's only making it better and more inclusive.

28:45 - Angela Andrews 

That does it for this episode of Compiler.

28:48 - Brent Simoneaux 

Today's episode was produced by Kim Huang and Caroline Creaghead. Victoria Lawton always tells us to do good because doing good is good business.

28:59 - Angela Andrews 

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Our audio engineer is Kristie Chan. Special thanks to Shawn Cole. Our theme song was composed by Mary Ancheta

29:09 - Brent Simoneaux 

A big thank you to our guests Madeline Di Nonno and James Blevins.

29:15 - Angela Andrews 

Our audio team includes Leigh Day, Stephanie Wonderlick, Mike Esser, Laura Barnes, Claire Allison, Nick Burns, Aaron Williamson, Karen King, Boo Boo Howse, Rachel Ertel, Mike Compton, Ocean Matthews, and Laura Walters.

29:32 - Brent Simoneaux 

If you like today's episode, please follow us, rate the show, and leave a review. It really does help us out.

29:40 - Angela Andrews 

We love that you listen and keep on listening. Bye, everybody.

29:44 - Brent Simoneaux 

All right.


Featured guests

Madeline Di Nonno

James Blevins