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Episode 09

How Are Tech Hubs Changing?


Show Notes

Start-ups. Newly affluent neighborhoods. Overpriced coffee shops. Tech hubs evoke a lot of imagery, opinions, and emotions. Traditionally, if someone wanted a career in tech, they had to make the move to one of these cities. The influx of new people and new ideas into a city can cause shifts in discourse, culture, and power. After all, technology can transform people, and it can transform places, too. 


But things are starting to change. We unwrap what has made tech hubs into spaces of collaboration and creativity, and how that energy can alter cities over time. Lastly, we speak to a few of the change-makers who are thinking outside of the physical and social dimensions we’ve come to associate with innovation.


00:02 - Kim Huang

Brent, Angela, question for you. When I say ‘tech hub’, what do you think of?

00:11 - Brent Simoneaux

Overpriced coffee.

00:16 - Kim Huang 


00:17 - Angela Andrews 

Full stop. For me, it would have to be tech companies just in a volume. One on every corner, I think gentrification, I think tech talent, I think raising rents, that's what I think when I hear the words ‘tech hub’.

00:41 - Brent Simoneaux 

Angela, I'm wondering if you would consider where you live to be a tech hub?

00:47 - Angela Andrews 

Would I consider it or would my mayor consider it?

00:53 - Brent Simoneaux 

Well, what's the difference?

00:54 - Angela Andrews 

Well, you know what, I'm going to back up on that.

00:57 - Brent Simoneaux 


00:58 - Angela Andrews 

I do think Philadelphia, which is where I live, is a tech hub, because we have some of the best universities and colleges in our immediate area.

01:08 - Brent Simoneaux 


01:09 - Angela Andrews 

Think of Drexel. They have one of the most famous co-ops where students get to go into industry and work for these huge companies and they stay here and then they go to grad school here. And then because it used to be such a really inexpensive place to live, people stayed. And the companies kept coming. We have a lot of big name companies in Philadelphia, so I personally, I do think Philadelphia is a tech hub. Most people may disagree, but if there were a checklist, I'm sure Philadelphia could check a lot of those boxes.

01:42 - Brent Simoneaux 


01:44 - Kim Huang 

You're right Angela. In the past, cities had to check off a lot of those boxes you were talking about, but now things are a little different, tech hubs are evolving. And I wanted to know a little bit more about how tech hubs used to be and how things are now.

02:06 - Brent Simoneaux 

This is Compiler, an original podcast from Red Hat.

02:11 - Angela Andrews 

We're your hosts.

02:12 - Brent Simoneaux 

I'm Brent Simoneaux.

02:13 - Angela Andrews 

I'm Angela Andrews.

02:14 - Brent Simoneaux 

We're here to break down questions from the tech industry, big, small, and sometimes strange.

02:21 - Angela Andrews 

Each episode, we talk to people in the tech industry, including Red Hatters like us.

02:27 - Brent Simoneaux 

Today's question, how are tech hubs changing?

02:30 - Angela Andrews 

Producer Kim Huang is on the case. So Kim, who are we talking to first?

02:39 - Kim Huang 

Well, I needed to know in the beginning a little bit about tech hubs and the way they were before. So I spoke with Christian Bigsby.

02:50 - Christian Bigsby 

I am the Vice President of Workplace Resources, which is effectively the global real estate and facility management function at Cisco.

02:58 - Kim Huang 

I asked Christian about how tech hubs came into prominence. We've heard stories about the big startups, the desirable places to work, like FAANG.

03:07 - Brent Simoneaux

Wait, what is FAANG?

03:07 - Kim Huang 

No. Ah, FAANG.

03:10 - Angela Andrews 

Tell him, Kim.

03:12 - Kim Huang 

All right. Let's see if I can get this right.

03:13 - Brent Simoneaux 

It sounds dangerous.

03:16 - Kim Huang 

It's an acronym.

03:18 - Angela Andrews 

You got this.

03:19 - Kim Huang

Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Netflix and Google.

03:22 - Angela Andrews 

Boom, FAANG.

03:25 - Brent Simoneaux 

Oh, okay.

03:26 - Kim Huang 

Many, many people in the tech field refer to FAANG when they're talking about Silicon Valley and all the desirable companies that most engineers and developers want to work for when they exit college, for example, or they first enter the field.

03:41 - Angela Andrews 


03:42 - Kim Huang 

But what does that have to do with places like Silicon Valley, the actual geographic location? Christian talks a little bit about what brought tech workers together in the first place.

03:57 - Christian Bigsby 

At that time, technology required a place to develop work together, there was not really remote collaborative technology, those were the advent of these tech centers. The nature of technology allows us to do all sorts of asynchronous work, lots of remote collaboration, the nature of augmented reality and other things. Artificial intelligence allows us to work from anywhere.

04:22 - Kim Huang 

So in the beginning, the tech industry enjoyed a little bit of privilege compared to other industries. It was very easy to work basically from anywhere and ironically over time, the products that a lot of these companies started turning out helped enable other companies to also have teams that could work from anywhere. So what's really important about having a physical location, is having a place where people can come together in person.

04:51 - Brent Simoneaux 

So it's like this ironic thing where the tech company drew everyone together, and then created the technology by coming together that allowed us to go away.

05:03 - Kim Huang 

Yeah, kind of.

05:05 - Angela Andrews 

Isn't that interesting though?

05:06 - Kim Huang 

It is.

05:07 - Brent Simoneaux 


05:08 - Kim Huang 

But Christian says there's still something really special to having people work in person.

05:14 - Christian Bigsby 

There is still something to the ritualistic, in the ceremonial part of people being together. They still want to connect for the right reasons. They want to connect with people that energize them, share a vision of the next innovation, they rally around a common cause or a common culture or the investments that they're making in the community even, and that's the deep human connection that people seek, and that they'll still go to a place to do that.

05:43 - Angela Andrews 

I miss working in an office. I love this remote work thing, but dang.

05:49 - Brent Simoneaux 

Yeah, I'm with you, Angela. Just being in the same space with people and running into them, working on things together in the same physical space. To me there's, I don't know. Honestly, I miss it too. I'm with you.

06:07 - Angela Andrews 

Okay. So I don't feel so alone, but if we're talking about Silicon Valley, Christian said it, it was people coming together, brainstorming in the same room, in each other's faces, and that's how that phase of innovation happened. I think we're in another phase right now, right?

06:27 - Brent Simoneaux 

I think so.

06:28 - Angela Andrews 

And with the technology that brought us the ability to work so effectively remotely, now we have to transform how we innovate, how we communicate across the airwaves, how do we get that serendipitous meeting with a coworker via an online meeting?

06:48 - Brent Simoneaux 


06:52 - Kim Huang 

To Angela's point, I think that we have to be very explicit to people as to why they're being asked to work in person. It's not about the what, it's about the why, why are people being asked. We have to make it matter.

07:10 - Christian Bigsby 

We are not asking people to come to a place for the purpose of attendance. So the focus has got to be on how we get teams right, how we get the settings to create those great team moments, how we get those great blank canvas moments for teams to create the things they need to, whether it's work on a project, to work on a campaign, to work on a launch, to work on a customer solution.

07:36 - Kim Huang 

Angela, earlier on you mentioned gentrification, so I wanted to address that very large elephant in the room. What happens when a tech hub becomes gentrified? What are some things that need to be considered?

07:54 - Angela Andrews 

So I have a lot of feelings about this, and I just think that when a city becomes a tech hub, when tech hubs start coming into a city, I think they have a responsibility to that place because they're impacting it. They're impacting the community, they're impacting the way the schools are going to run, the way the streets are going to be built, they're impacting so much that they have to be mindful that if they ever decide to up and leave, that impact is going to have a ripple effect throughout all of the people that are still there, and don't have the luxury of getting up and leaving.

08:34 - Brent Simoneaux 

Even if the tech companies stay, right?

08:37 - Angela Andrews 

The impact is felt either way. Yes, yes.

08:40 - Brent Simoneaux 


08:41 - Kim Huang 

I agree. Companies need to keep their ear to the ground to make sure that they know what's going on in a community. So I wanted to speak to somebody else who had a lot of things to say about how a tech hub and that kind of culture transforms a city. I spoke with Patrick McKenna, he's a person that writes a lot about tech hubs.

09:05 - Patrick McKenna 

I think it's not just the tech workers, it's all the people in the city that made the city so vibrant and creative and interesting. So for every tech worker you attract, you get four service jobs, maybe four or five service jobs. And then for all that wealth and all that success, you need to actually retain the people that made the city really interesting. The musicians, the artists, and I like to think about it, the teachers and firefighters, you want them living in the community as well, and so this is why what you're saying is so important. When you're going to attract this new workforce, then you need to be able to house the new workforce so you don't price out and push out the people that actually made the city so interesting and attractive to begin with.

09:47 - Kim Huang 

So Angela, how do you feel hearing what Patrick has to say about a city keeping its character?

09:54 - Angela Andrews 

I think that is very important in any city, the people give it its culture, its vibrancy. If they are unable to afford their own property taxes, their own rents, I see that as being very problematic.

10:11 - Brent Simoneaux 

Yeah. And I don't know that anyone is saying we don't want prosperity.

10:17 - Angela Andrews 

No, not at all.

10:17 - Brent Simoneaux 

We don't want progress. I think it's responsible progress, and it's responsible prosperity, and prosperity for the entire community, right?

10:30 - Angela Andrews 


10:31 - Kim Huang 

So how do we get to, what do you say, responsible prosperity?

10:37 - Brent Simoneaux 


10:38 - Angela Andrews 

I love that phrase.

10:39 - Kim Huang 

Yeah, me too. How do we get there? And I feel like you and I, Brent, are thinking the same things.

10:45 - Brent Simoneaux 


10:47 - Kim Huang 

This is why I spoke to Patrick McKenna who we just heard from. He runs a nonprofit called One America Works and it's dedicated to getting more people into what he calls the modern economy. When he says more people, he means more people outside of major cities. Patrick introduced me to two important aspects of tech hubs, two things that make them work. The first one is what he calls the knowledge network.

11:15 - Patrick McKenna 

Knowledge network is the access to the know-how that's required to build and scale technology companies. So if you have a really good idea and you're in Silicon Valley, you can test that idea against a lot of really smart, knowledgeable people and learn, oh, this idea has been tested, failed, tested, failed, tested, successful. If you are in a place outside of Silicon Valley, say in Indianapolis or Nashville, to the extent you have access to that knowledge network, you'll be able to test your idea against what's already been done and proven, you can find tools that'll help you actually accelerate the solution, and this is why those knowledge networks are so important. And tech hubs need to not only just develop their local entrepreneurs, but they need to infuse themselves with direct network connectivity to the best practices of the entire knowledge economy.

12:08 - Brent Simoneaux 

So what is Patrick saying here about knowledge networks, is he saying that it's changing or these don't exist? What is he saying exactly about these knowledge networks?

12:19 - Kim Huang 

Well, it's one of two important components. So I'll introduce the second component and then together we can go back and discuss exactly what he means by all of this.

12:29 - Brent Simoneaux 


12:31 - Kim Huang 

The second is the trust network.

12:33 - Patrick McKenna 

The concept of Silicon Valley is a trust network. That if you're in Silicon Valley, you went to a similar school, you worked for a tech company like Google or Facebook or eBay, everybody who you met and you saw, and you worked with, relied on the fact that you were part of that trust network. They knew, oh, that person worked at Google, that's really hard to get a job at Google, I can trust that person. Oh, this person's company was funded by Sequoia. Okay, I know what that means. Or this person went to Stanford. Okay, I know what that means. So the trust network, Silicon Valley is sincerely and truthfully a trust network that lowers friction, that allows for collaboration, funding, all the things that are necessary for a tech innovation environment.

13:19 - Angela Andrews 

That is so deep because that just sounds so elitist to me. It did not sit well in my ears, listening to that.

13:27 - Kim Huang 

Tell me more.

13:30 - Angela Andrews 

You're saying that you can only trust people who went to school with you, you can only trust people that worked with you or worked in companies like your company. And if you're in that bubble even if you meet someone new, but they're from that same pedigree, you can automatically trust them. What does that say for people who didn't go to Stanford, didn't work at Google, who lives in this place that they call Silicon Valley and maybe have been there for the last 20 or 30 years, you don't inherently trust them?

14:07 - Kim Huang 

Yes. So I'm going to skip ahead a little bit, because Patrick does have something to say specifically about the trust network and how it can be beneficial sometimes, but it's important to not rely on it too much.

14:20 - Patrick McKenna 

I want to be careful of the trust network because it's generally a good thing, but like anything that has groupthink, it could be a bad thing too. So you just don't want to fully rely on it.

14:30 - Kim Huang 

So yeah. So one thing it introduces the possibility of groupthink. Everyone knows the same things and they don't have any experience outside of those same things, in order to further innovate on whatever they're working on. But to your point Angela, you're absolutely right. What about people who do not necessarily come from these places and these schools, how do they get their foot in the door?

14:56 - Brent Simoneaux 

Yeah, what I was thinking is this sounds really homogenous and that's not great for innovation.

15:05 - Kim Huang 

A trust network is kind of, you know what other people know, the only thing is you don't know what they don't know. And I think that's going to your point Brent, about the lack of diverse thought and the homogenous nature that that kind of aspect can have for tech hubs, especially.

15:26 - Brent Simoneaux 

So how does this all affect today's tech hubs?

15:31 - Kim Huang 

Well, let's start here. Patrick says these two concepts, the knowledge network and the trust network are needed to ease barriers to innovation. To me, it sounds like these concepts help teams scale their operations, whether they are a small business looking to grow or part of a larger organization trying to find their next big thing.

15:52 - Patrick McKenna 

So when I think about the trust network and why it's so important with tech hubs, is to the extent your tech hub is connected to the trust network, you've now lowered the friction and barriers to get access to talent funding, all the things that actually make you successful. So the knowledge network is very technical skills-based: how you iterate, how you think, how you flow the pieces and components.

16:15 - Brent Simoneaux 

I think I'm with Angela on this one, who is the you in what he's saying here?

16:20 - Angela Andrews 

Not me.

16:22 - Kim Huang 

Not me, either.

16:23 - Angela Andrews 

He's not talking about me.

16:24 - Kim Huang 

Yeah, I get that. The way he talks about tech hubs does sound a little insular, but I think he's getting to a much bigger point. Angela, it might resonate with you a little better.

16:35 - Angela Andrews 

Okay, let's hear it.

16:36 - Kim Huang 

So Patrick is breaking down how these networks used to be, but something different is happening. Something that will make these things not so homogenous, and it has to do with the cities themselves.

16:52 - Patrick McKenna 

Up until a year and a half ago, cities really focused on attracting the companies to their city. And this usually came in terms of tax incentives. The cities were actually making pitches to the companies to say, ‘Hey, open an office here.’ What's really changed is that the workers are in more control. So cities now have the opportunity to make a direct pitch to the talent workers out there and say, ‘Hey, you can come to our city, we have affordable housing, we have safe cities, we have great schools, and you don't have to sacrifice your professional career because there are a lot of people like you here already.’

17:29 - Kim Huang 

Cities are starting to realize that these two concepts of the knowledge network and the trust network, they are important, but they are not stationary. So they're looking to talent themselves instead of making an appeal to a tech company to build an office in their locale.

17:49 - Brent Simoneaux 

Do you think that the way that tech hubs are shifting, is this a positive thing? Is that what I'm hearing?

17:58 - Angela Andrews 

I hear yes.

17:59 - Brent Simoneaux 

I hear yes, too.

18:01 - Kim Huang 

What's happening if you really pull back and see all these different components for what they are, what’s happening is that the more insular, less diverse aspects of the knowledge network and the trust network are being dismantled, and the tent is being made a little bit bigger for people who want to get into the tech industry. So if you take away those more exclusive aspects of what makes a tech hub successful, you enable not only other cities to build their own tech hubs and have their own local brain trust, as far as people who work in the tech industry, you're also making the whole of the IT industry more diverse.

18:53 - Angela Andrews 

Indeed. That sounds like a win-win to me.

18:57 - Kim Huang 

I told you we'd get there, and we got there.

19:00 - Brent Simoneaux 

They got there.

19:03 - Kim Huang 

You just have to bear with me.

19:03 - Brent Simoneaux 

We're skeptical, Kim. We were skeptical for a second there.

19:08 - Angela Andrews 

So after listening to Patrick and Christian, I'm curious to find out who's doing that work or where is that happening, where are those tech hubs that we're talking about? Where are they coming to be?

19:23 - Dr. Nashlie Sephus 

I'm glad you asked. I'm Dr. Nashlie Sephus. And I am a machine learning Tech Evangelist at AWS. I'm also the founder of The Bean Path, which is a nonprofit based in Jackson, Mississippi that does free Tech Hub. Also I'm the lead developer and founder of the Jackson Tech District, a 14 acre live-work-play development in the downtown Jackson, Mississippi area.

19:51 - Kim Huang 

So Dr. Nashlie, she prefers to be called Dr. Nashlie, started The Bean Path to provide free tech support for local citizens in Jackson. From there, the program grew and eventually Dr. Nashlie was able to secure 17,000 square feet of unused space in downtown Jackson.

20:11 - Angela Andrews 

Okay, now.

20:12 - Dr. Nashlie Sephus 

And so I inquired about the property, I found out that the same person owned all the property around it as well. So it ended up being, acquiring 14 acres September of last year and the rest in February of 2021, and I thought that this is great, now we became a real estate developer.

20:34 - Brent Simoneaux 

Wait. So Dr. Nashlie works at AWS, right?

20:40 - Angela Andrews 


20:41 - Brent Simoneaux 

She's a machine learning tech evangelist.

20:45 - Angela Andrews 


20:46 - Brent Simoneaux 

And she lives in Jackson, Mississippi. She's from Jackson, Mississippi?

20:53 - Kim Huang 

She is a native of Jackson, Mississippi.

20:56 - Brent Simoneaux 

She is a native of Jackson, Mississippi. And she well, put me in her shoes, what is she thinking here, what is she doing?

21:03 - Kim Huang 

Because she's from the state, and they do have some tech programs, like Mississippi State [University] does have a pretty good IT and computer science program. There's a lot of people in the area that want to work, but they also don't want to leave. So I think that this is Dr. Nashlie's way of coming back into the area and investing in the area, and giving those people a place to innovate.

21:34 - Brent Simoneaux 

So there's a lot of tech talent in Jackson, Mississippi, but in order to work a tech job, they may need to leave.

21:44 - Kim Huang 


21:45 - Brent Simoneaux 

And she's saying, well, maybe that's not the case, what if we made Jackson, Mississippi into a tech hub?

21:55 - Kim Huang 


21:55 - Angela Andrews 

I love that idea.

21:57 - Brent Simoneaux 

I know. But also what a, that is no small task, right?

22:02 - Angela Andrews 

Of course not.

22:03 - Brent Simoneaux 

That's a lot of space, and adding real estate developer to your resume, that is no small thing.

22:13 - Kim Huang 

Right. The Bean Path has entire teams of support. It has legal teams, it has real estate development teams, event planners, and that's only the beginning. Dr. Nashlie says that she put a lot of work into understanding tech hubs and how they work as she finds herself building one in Jackson.

22:34 - Dr. Nashlie Sephus 

I would say that there are definitely other spaces of innovation hubs, I guess, as we call them throughout the country, even beyond. I've toured several, lived in different areas that have had these systems and these tech ecosystems and these spaces grow and thrive.

22:52 - Kim Huang 

So what inspired the development in Jackson? Dr. Nashlie, like I said, she's from Jackson, Mississippi, and she has a personal stake in seeing the city thrive. But there was another reason that I didn't mention before, the reason why she wanted to create a space like The Bean Path, and it has to do with the innovation.

23:10 - Dr. Nashlie Sephus 

If I had an idea at two o'clock in the morning, and I just had to get somewhere to build it, I had a safe place where I could go and experiment, without being in a school or university. If you're just a normal person who, maybe you didn't go to school or you're not associated with any of those programs anymore, it’s really nowhere for you to go, at least in the community in Jackson. So I took all of this from all these other places, and I said, we're going to do this, but we're not just going to recreate what has been done, we're going to really tailor it to this market.

23:47 - Angela Andrews 


23:48 - Kim Huang 


23:48 - Brent Simoneaux 

There's the university campus again.

23:52 - Angela Andrews 

Yeah, she has a point because not every college and university is open to the community.

23:58 - Kim Huang 


23:59 - Angela Andrews 

So for her to have built this, and she's building it for her community to have a place to come, to have a place to build and innovate, that is so major. Because again, what if you didn't go to this university, but it's smack dead in the middle of your community and you don't have the access to it that, say, a student does, but you'd like to use the resources. She really brings down those barriers with building what she's building.

24:29 - Brent Simoneaux 

Yeah, her talking about having an idea at two o'clock in the morning and having a safe place to go and build it, but I would say not just a safe place, but a group of people there as well, a trust network.

24:46 - Kim Huang 

Or a knowledge network.

24:47 - Brent Simoneaux 

Or a knowledge network.

24:48 - Angela Andrews 


24:49 - Brent Simoneaux 

A knowledge network. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Of people that you can build with as well.

24:55 - Kim Huang 

Exactly. So I think that's a good answer to your question from before Brent. I think that's the reason why Dr. Nashlie came back, or went back rather, to Mississippi. It's not that Jackson, Mississippi is without its charms, it's a wonderful place with a lot of history, but some of that history is a little problematic.

25:19 - Dr. Nashlie Sephus 

We have a bad rap for historic, racism, stereotypes, are we walking around with bare feet, who knows, maybe I am, but it's okay. But I think the biggest misconception is that we don't have the tech talent. And I know for a fact that those people are there, I know that a lot of those people who are very successful in the tech industry have ties to Mississippi as well, myself included. And so having to be able to get educated in Mississippi or be from there and then to go out and feel like maybe you don't get the same opportunities in Mississippi that you can get elsewhere. I'm hoping to change that, that is a big motivator behind stopping the brain drain as we call it.

26:08 - Angela Andrews 

It happens. Folks graduate college and move on, or they choose a college outside of where they grew up and they never come back.

26:19 - Kim Huang 


26:19 - Angela Andrews 

Yeah, all of your resources, your natural resources, sometimes they go away and don't come back.

26:26 - Brent Simoneaux 

Yeah, they go to where the opportunity is. And often at least in tech, it has historically, at least in the recent past, been to tech hubs.

26:36 - Kim Huang 

Yes, I was made to believe or told directly in some cases by my family, in no uncertain terms, that I would have to absolutely move away from my hometown if I wanted to pursue any type of career, just because my hometown is so small and there's very limited job opportunities there. So for me, if Dr. Nashlie can be successful and build a tech hub in and a place like Jackson, that really gives a lot of hope for me when, it really changes the game, as far as where the talent is, because it's not like my personal ties to my hometown disappeared when I started working in tech, they didn't go away, I am very invested in my hometown and the people who were there, my family, my friends. I want them to be a part of this modern economy as well. I don't want them to be left behind either. I have a very personal stake in this.

27:38 - Brent Simoneaux 

We started today's episode by asking the question, how are tech hubs changing, and I'm wondering Kim, what you think now?

27:48 - Kim Huang 

I think that when people talk about tech hubs, traditionally, there's been a laundry list of all these things. Walkability, desirability, parks, recreation, amenities, schools, but the ultimate factor for tech hubs is people.

28:08 - Angela Andrews 


28:08 - Kim Huang 

That's the number one factor always. People do the work, they innovate, they create technologies that adjust the problems in our world. And those people are starting to realize that innovation can happen anywhere, not just in a city. Business challenges are not restricted to a place. People can experience those same challenges anywhere. So talent is moving and it's shifting, and it's changing the way that it does things, and businesses, and therefore cities will have to change too, right along with them. I want to be careful in saying, I don't think Silicon Valley is a horrible place. I don't think San Francisco is a horrible place.

28:52 - Angela Andrews 

I was just vacationing there. It is not a horrible place. It's beautiful.

28:55 - Kim Huang 

Oh, it's fantastic. Yes. But I feel that over time it will become ‘cultures’ instead of one centralized culture. I feel that, and Silicon Valley has a really important part to play in that.

29:10 - Brent Simoneaux 


29:11 - Kim Huang 

I feel that it can serve to empower other cultures and other locations into being, not like them, but different, because we need a lot of different perspectives and a lot of different talents to solve the problems and the business challenges that we're trying to address.

29:34 - Brent Simoneaux 

I could not have said that better Kim. I love that so much.

29:38 - Angela Andrews 

I'd like to hear where people live and would they consider it a tech hub?

29:43 - Brent Simoneaux 


29:44 - Kim Huang 


29:44 - Angela Andrews 

So hit us up at RedHat on Twitter and use the hashtag Compiler Podcast. We can't wait to hear about all these new tech hubs. And that does it for this episode of Compiler.

29:59 - Brent Simoneaux 

Today's episode was produced by Kim Huang and Caroline Creaghead. Victoria Lawton invests in our dreams no matter how silly they are, and trust me, they are often silly.

30:14 - Angela Andrews 

Our audio engineer is Elizabeth Hart with Kristie Chan. Special thanks to Shawn Cole. Our theme song was composed by Mary Ancheta.

30:23 - Brent Simoneaux 

Thank you to our guests, Christian Bigsby, Patrick McKenna and Dr. Nashlie Sephus.

30:29 - Angela Andrews 

Our audio team includes Leigh Day, Laura Barnes, Claire Allison, Nick Burns, Aaron Williamson, Karen King, Boo Boo Howse, Rachel Ertel, Mike Compton, Ocean Matthews and Laura Walters.

30:45 - Brent Simoneaux 

If you like today's show, the best thing that you can do is to leave us a review and share it with your friends. It really, really helps us out.

30:55 - Angela Andrews 

That would be so awesome. Thanks for listening. We'll see you real soon.

30:59 - Brent Simoneaux 

All right. Bye everybody.



Featured guests

Christian Bigsby

Patrick McKenna

Dr. Nashlie Sephus

We were so excited about our episode on licenses—so we have a special project that we want to share. Our Compiler theme song is now under a Creative Commons license. Add your own special touch to our theme. Remixes have the chance to be featured on a future episode.